Castes of India

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by kmguru, Jul 30, 2001.

  1. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    There is a philosophical question that comes to mind and this thread is in the right place. Why these innocents died?

    Without invoking God's name, I will try to answer in the Eastern Philosophy POV:

    Everything that happens in the world and universe has a cause and effect relationship. There is a saying " ...handwriting on the wall..." . Peoples action on the planet have effects, some results can be seen in a short time frame and others can be seen in a long time frame. The shorter time frames are easilier to manage than longer time frames. Each subsequent action has its effect and so on.

    For example, I found a solution for a very large corporation that just filed for Chap 11. The solution is perfect for them. The solution was presented to them through a lower channel six months ago, but they ignored them. Now the solution is being presented to them at the CEO level. Now, if they still ignore it, then the company will be sold off piece by piece and the creditors will get what they can. Some will lose money. Company will lay off tons of people (already started). Then the company is no more. Can the CEO make the right choices under Chap 11 terror? I will let you know in a few weeks.

    The universe always gives us solutions in the time of need. Those who use it make the wise choice and be sucessful at it. The people who got laid off in the above company were innocent and had no control over people who were watching the store.

    I can give you four or five examples where companies got their right solutions at the right time, those who took it became successful, those who did not - filed Chap 11 or in case of recent ones, I am waiting for them to go under. But one thing never fails - they are presented with the correct solution at the correct time. That is called Karmic Law of the Universe.

    Now, does this have any similarity with our incidence on Sept 11? To me it is a major YES. Did they have warnings before this? YES; Where did the warning go? To the lower channel; Did they act on it? NO; So people got terminated? YES; Does the CEO (Our Pres) now have the solution? YES; Can he identify what that is? perhaps not; Does he wish to implement that solution? YES; Can he implement that solution: Perhaps not; Are we up the creek without a paddle: YES.

    The whole science of this is called "Complexity Management". I have posted this in relation to Business, in this forum. A complex business system, a social system and a government system - they are all the same with a different prefix in the name only.
     
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  3. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

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    How are we up the creek without a paddle? That would imply that there's nothing we can do. There's plenty we can do. Hitting them in the pocketbook was just one small part of how an asymmetrical war is fought.
     
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  5. kmguru Staff Member

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    Oh...there is plenty we could do to nuetralize the threat once for all. But would we, can we do it? That is a whole different matter.

    Pocket books are good strategy but only works to those who have pocket books. Those who have nothing to lose...that may not be the right approach. But it will work indirectly.

    Looking at the big picture is a necessity. Our look only goes out to 4 years.
     
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  7. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

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    That's why I said that pocketbooks are just a part of it. There's not a whole lot on this planet that doesn't run on money. Bin Laden has quite a bit of it, and it's most likely not in cash. By blocking his access to that money we take away his ability to get things like guns, plane tickets, and other logistical things that a terrorist needs. The barter system doesn't work well at all on the scale he would need to get his equipment. Locking up his money is the equivalent of eliminating a department within a company by first cancelling its accounts that it uses to get its supplies. You know, what good is a printer if there's no paper? What good is a high-end NIC card if there's no cable? For want of a nail, as we say. Of course, this isn't the whole solution. It's just one small but effective part.
     
  8. kmguru Staff Member

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    11,757
    That is exactly what our government is trying. The problem is what one persons terrorist, it is other persons freedom fighters. Until that definition is solved - it wont work.

    Hurting innocent people by means of bombs or withdrawing food source is not a good thing. Misery loves company. And gutter snakes come from gutters. It is a complex world. Only a good world humanitarian leadership can solve this problem.
     
  9. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

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    2,478
    But who is really hurting the innocent people? We haven't laid waste to Afghanistan, even though it's within our capabilities, because our government wants to make sure it gets the people who are responsible. Otherwise we could wipe the country off the face of the planet. The Afghanistan government, the Taliban, has placed itself in the position of provinding shelter to a bunch of people who have pretty much pissed off the entire planet. In doing so, the Taliban is hurting its own people by its actions.

    As Bush has said, our war is not with the people of Afghanistan. Its with the terrorists and those who provide shelter and assistance for them. In this case, the Taliban is providing the shelter and is knowingly putting its people in harm's way. There is nothing but themselves stopping them from rolling over on the terrorist network and handing over all of their information on it. This could save a lot of people a lot of agony. The ball is in their court if they want to stop the juggernaut of war.

    By the way, how did this thread go from the castes of India to why the Taliban does or doesn't deserve to have its little butt whipped?
     
  10. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    By the way, how did this thread go from the castes of India to why the Taliban does or doesn't deserve to have its little butt whipped?

    Not very many members visit this obscure topic. So basically we had a private chat...without anybody's interference. Only Deadwood visits this space occasionally.
     
  11. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

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    2,478
    Private chat room. Cool. Back to the subject of Afghanistan, I've been hearing about a lot of draconian laws enacted by the Taliban. I'm a student of propaganda and tend to take such things skeptically. Has anyone verified that things such as the death sentence if you don't have the proper beard length are true or not? I'm having a hard time swallowing that one. I know traditional Islamic laws tend to be strict, but this one sounds a little over the top.
     
  12. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,193
    Not very many members visit this obscure topic.

    I don't mind talking about this topic.

    The present day caste-system in India, is based on the ancient vedic system called 'varnashram dharma', it organises society into four occupational and four spiritual divisions (varnas and ashramas). The four occupational divisions are, Brahmin, Kshatriya, Viashya and Sudra.

    Brahmin= Technically the most intelligent of the four occupations, these are the priestly class. There role is to advise the Kshatrya class in keeping a God concious society. They are not allowed to work for money, they support themselves by begging alms. They are the only people who can chant the mantras perfectly, in the act of great sacrifices to Lord Vishnu (Parabrahman). The biblical character Abraham was such a personality.

    Kshatriya= Administrative class of men. This class of men usually occupy the posts of Kings and politicians. There role is to see to it that their kingdoms are safe, prosperous and above all God concious. They take their advise from the brahmins.

    Vaishya= A member of the mercantile and agricultural class, or for a modern term, the buisness men. They help the Kshatriya class, by producing wealth and maintaining the cows. (cows; very useful in society).

    Sudra= A member of the labouring class of men. He helps all the above, by offering his labour.

    The four spiritual divisions.


    Sanyasi= Is a person who lives in the renounced order of life. This means he lives his life fully in accordance with the Supreme. He renounces all manner of sense gratification, anything he does is only to please the Supreme Being. He offers everthing he has, including wife, children, food and life to the Supreme Being. At this stage, although he live in this material world, he is trancendental to it, in other words he is not affected in the least, by anything this world has to offer. He sees God in everything and everything in God.

    Varnaprashta= A man who has retired from householder life to cultivate greater renunciation, according to the vedic social system. At about the age of fifty, he leave his wife in the capable hands of their now older sons, goes on a spiritual pilgramage, and eventually ends up in a forest, whereby he begins to renounce the material world, and focuses on the Supreme Being.

    Grahastra= A married man who lives according to vedic principles. This class of man is allowed to have sexual intercourse with his wife, as long as their intentions are to pro-create. The idea of pro-cration is to produce God consious offspring.

    Brahmachari= This class of man is taught from the begining of his understanding, the vedic hymns, yajna (sacrifice) and celebacy. After some years of training, he is free to choose which one of the above four ashramas he would like to enter.

    When God created the material world, it was divided into 3 catorgaries (modes/gunas), goodness, passion and ignorance. The varnashram system integrated with those modes thus;

    Brahmin/ Sanyasi........ mode of goodness
    Kshatrya/Grahastra.....mode of passion
    Vaishya/Grahastra.......modes of passion and ignorance
    Sudra...........................mode of ignorance

    The people outside of the vedic social system are classed as untouchable, deep ignorance.

    It must be further noted, that these divisions was not decided on birth or wealth, but on the quality of the individual. Therefore, the son of a brahmin did not automatically become a brahmin, and the son of a sudra could by his determination to serve the Supreme Being, become a brahmin. Today we see, bogus gurus, priests and wealthy citizen, who may be connected via linage to brahmins, claiming that they are brahmins. This is not to be understood as the varnashrama system put in place by God.
     
  13. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,193
    SORRY ABOUT THE DOUBLE POST MIX-UP. TRIED TO DELETE ONE BUT ENDED UP DELETING BOTH.
     
  14. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    You can delete just one by going to the edit and checking the box at the left to delete it. You may have to refresh it to make it work.

    Thank you Jan for posting. We need more understanding between cultures so that one group does not try to wipe out the rest.
     
  15. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,193
    Not very many members visit this obscure topic.

    I don't mind talking about this topic.

    The present day caste-system in India, is based on the ancient vedic system called 'varnashram dharma', it organises society into four occupational and four spiritual divisions (varnas and ashramas). The four occupational divisions are, Brahmin, Kshatriya, Viashya and Sudra.

    Brahmin= Technically the most intelligent of the four occupations, these are the priestly class. There role is to advise the Kshatrya class in keeping a God concious society. They are not allowed to work for money, they support themselves by begging alms. They are the only people who can chant the mantras perfectly, in the act of great sacrifices to Lord Vishnu (Parabrahman). The biblical character Abraham was such a personality.

    Kshatriya= Administrative class of men. This class of men usually occupy the posts of Kings and politicians. There role is to see to it that their kingdoms are safe, prosperous and above all God concious. They take their advise from the brahmins.

    Vaishya= A member of the mercantile and agricultural class, or for a modern term, the buisness men. They help the Kshatriya class, by producing wealth and maintaining the cows. (cows; very useful in society).

    Sudra= A member of the labouring class of men. He helps all the above, by offering his labour.

    The four spiritual divisions.


    Sanyasi= Is a person who lives in the renounced order of life. This means he lives his life fully in accordance with the Supreme. He renounces all manner of sense gratification, anything he does is only to please the Supreme Being. He offers everthing he has, including wife, children, food and life to the Supreme Being. At this stage, although he live in this material world, he is trancendental to it, in other words he is not affected in the least, by anything this world has to offer. He sees God in everything and everything in God.

    Varnaprashta= A man who has retired from householder life to cultivate greater renunciation, according to the vedic social system. At about the age of fifty, he leave his wife in the capable hands of their now older sons, goes on a spiritual pilgramage, and eventually ends up in a forest, whereby he begins to renounce the material world, and focuses on the Supreme Being.

    Grahastra= A married man who lives according to vedic principles. This class of man is allowed to have sexual intercourse with his wife, as long as their intentions are to pro-create. The idea of pro-cration is to produce God consious offspring.

    Brahmachari= This class of man is taught from the begining of his understanding, the vedic hymns, yajna (sacrifice) and celebacy. After some years of training, he is free to choose which one of the above four ashramas he would like to enter.

    When God created the material world, it was divided into 3 catorgaries (modes/gunas), goodness, passion and ignorance. The varnashram system integrated with those modes thus;

    Brahmin/ Sanyasi........ mode of goodness
    Kshatrya/Grahastra.....mode of passion
    Vaishya/Grahastra.......modes of passion and ignorance
    Sudra...........................mode of ignorance

    The people outside of the vedic social system are classed as untouchable, deep ignorance.

    It must be further noted, that these divisions was not decided on birth or wealth, but on the quality of the individual. Therefore, the son of a brahmin did not automatically become a brahmin, and the son of a sudra could by his determination to serve the Supreme Being, become a brahmin. Today we see, bogus gurus, priests and wealthy citizen, who may be connected via linage to brahmins, claiming that they are brahmins. This is not to be understood as the varnashrama system put in place by God.
     
  16. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,478
    I haven't studied Indian culture as much as I should, probably because there isn't enough readily available information on the subject. I had only known a little about the occupational classes, never the spiritual. I do have a question about Arabic and Indian customs that I have not yet had answered. I thought I might get some answers asking people of those cultures, but they seemed reluctant to talk. May be a religious thing, or a cultural thing for all I know, so I will ask my fellow netizens:

    Is the color of the turban significant?
     
  17. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    Is the color of the turban significant?

    Truely? Not really... It has the same significance as the color of clothing you wear in this country. Like, white signifying purity, blue, peace - etc.

    I am sure long time ago, people wore what looked good, then the critiques came in - so now, you have to have a reason for everything...
     
  18. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,478
    One of the reasons I was curious about the color of the turban is because I went to school with a guy from India. I didn't really know him, he was just in one of my classes. He always wore a light blue turban. I didn't know him well enough to ask. I should have, but we moved in entirely different circles. (Talk about castes, what about high school? What caste were you in? I was in the "Outlaw caste", left to myself except for a few others who had the patience to penetrate my leather and chrome defenses.)
     
  19. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    When I was in high school, I had two sets of friends. One group were more physical, trouble makers (what you would call leathers and chain) and the other group were straight A students - high on the brain department. I was in the middle and got along really well with both sides - even though each group did not understand the other group...

    Ever since, I pass off as either compasionate conservative or a conservative democrat - depending on the issues at hand.

    The turban kid you reffered to could be from the Sikh religion group. Many hundred years ago, when Akbar and other Moslems invaded India, the Indians could not fight a regular war. So they created a guerrilla force. To reduce inflitration by the enemy, they setup certain parameters such as uncut hair (you can not grow hair overnight), a metal bangle that you wear such that as you physically grow, the bangle size ratio to your palm changes (again it is difficult to fake) and some other stuff. Over the years, the whole group developed as a philosophy of living and now is considered a full fledged religion.

    Today Sikhs are highly industrious, and a very high quality community both in India and in US. In general, they are a peace loving group and very ferocious fighters if backed into a corner. I have a lot of respect for that group.
     
  20. Markx Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    970

    There is no such punishment in Islam if one shave his beard. And neither there are any punishments for if women doesn't cover her full face. They are all men made, Ilitrate and ignorant cultures, One need to see that their one full generation never went to school no studies at all constant war for last 23 years. They hide behind religion and use it as a shield and make lame excuses to justify their wrong doings. Sad but true they really pervert Islam.
     
  21. kmguru Staff Member

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    11,757
    Thanks Markx. People all over have been doing this for thousands of years. More uneducated, more paranoia and more draconian.
     
  22. Rick Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,336
    Color of Turban?

    not really.its not important.they(Sikhs off course as KM said) usually wear the one that matches with their clothes.

    during marriages,they have to wear a RED turban,even in Hindu culture you have to wear a Turban,although i am unable to confirm the color.
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    Not many people come here...
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    Why?...i"d love to come here quite often as i can.


    bye!
     
  23. Rick Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,336
    Km just wondering,


    is Sanatana Dharma anyway related to Arya Samaj?
    i mean do you worship statues,or not(like Arya samajis who dont)

    just curious...


    bye!
     

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