CaRbO CoNsCiOuS ArE We?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by schwooly boy, Jul 14, 2004.

  1. chunkylover58 Make it a ... CHEEEESEburger Registered Senior Member

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    WCF...

    What is your take on the notion promoted by Atkins and others that ketosis is a safe and effective way to lose weight? They say that the brain prefers to use ketones over glucose for energy after the body is forced to live on ketones, which frees protein for muscle building....after a certain period of time on a VERY STRICT low carb phase? (This, I presume, is why the early stages of the diet cause such a rapid weight loss. There IS a loss of muscle mass along with water during this time because your body is so used to glycogen for energy and has to get it from protein during this time).

    This seems to be one of those sticky issues where proponents of the diet will say ketosis is perfectly benign and the only problem is bad breath and stinky pee, where nutritionists and physiologist warn about the potential detrimental effects of essentially putting your body in a mode similar to starvation. Also that ketosis produces such high acidity in the blood that the body must get rid of it, which is where much of the weight is lost...water. Not to mention the other risks involved such as gout and kidney stones. Then there's the potential for the slippery slope down to much more dangerous ketoacidosis....
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    ketones do not need to be made from fat, in fact they are made from acetyl-CoA, (precursor as well as product of fat) the brain cannot us fat as fatty acids do not pass though the blood-brain barrier but the water soluble ketones bodies do so fat must be converted to ketones for the brain, ketones are the only source of energy for the brain during starvation, though I don't know of much short or long term side effects of living of ketones, aside for persistent bad breath form the acetone that escapes from the lungs. protein/fat diets have been recommend for people with metabolic disorders in glucogensis and glucose metabolism such a diabetics, which I believe is how Dr. Atkins discover high protein diets could reduce body weight after working with diabetic patients. Even so I don’t believe there is anything magical about High protein diets as they work by reducing calorie intake like all other diets do. Metabolizing protein into glucose/fat/ketones requires a lot of water, mostly for getting ride of all the urea from the amines in the protein. This may give the appearance of sudden weigh lose, but that is not from lose of fat.

    Also High-protein consisting of red meat will increase chances of heart disease and arterial sclerosis and stroke. The fat from the meat will build up as LDL and log them selves in your arteries! So I cannot recommend meat as the major source of protein.

    I do beleive more studies in the long term side effects of this diet are needed. Very low calorie diets in some studies have been shown to increase life span, though well-being and general health may be reduced. Such diets do consist of a dramatic reduction of carbs and fat. living of salads though just dosen't seem satisfying.
     
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  5. Princess Science Dork Registered Senior Member

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    A salad-filled existence doesn't seem satisfying to me either. What's the point of living an extra 5-10 years if you don't get to enjoy good and sometimes fatty food? Like so many things in life it's all about moderation. You can have a slice of cheesecake just not every night. You can have a wonderful steak or bacon cheeseburger just not every day.

    I have a co-worker that is diabetic. He checks his blood sugar but doesn't need to take insulin. His diet is basically lean meat, veggies and nuts. He doesn't eat white bread, potatoes, rice or refined sugar. He's a healthy weight and his insulin is under control.

    I frequently work out of the office and often am forced to eat fast food or starve. The other day while at Hardee's I noticed a poster for their "Low Carb Breakfast Bowl" Eggs, sausage, bacon, ham and cheese in a bowl. 620 calories, 50 grams of fat but only 4 net carbs!

    http://www.hardees.com/lowcarb.pdf

    Based on my weight and activity level, my calorie intake is about 1800/day and of that about 40 grams should come from fat (~20%). So eating the low carb breakfast bowl means that I can eat no fat for the rest of the day. On the low carb diet you can eat this crap and as long as you don't eat a piece of white bread you won't get fat? W.C. Fields was right when he said "There's a sucker born every minute."
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Princess,

    In studies with rodents they were able to increase their life spans by 50-100%, so hypothetically living like that you could live to 150, hypothetically of course.

    A healthy weight does not show any sign of internal damage from clogged arteries.

    yes fast food is worse then starving trust me! I worked at a McDonalds back in High school, you would not want to know about the crap that happens to you food before we serve it to you, let alone is unhealthy nutritional value.
     
  8. chunkylover58 Make it a ... CHEEEESEburger Registered Senior Member

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    Heh...I haven't eaten at McDonald's ever since I saw "Super Size Me" about a month ago. Don't have any desire to do so anytime soon.

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  9. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    I do. I have read some of the scientific articles and criticisms on it which are a lot more interesting than the book. The book will biased u know.

    I clearly quoted Princess in the last post AS WELL AS mentioning her name in the post. In fact I didn't know u even posted on this thread until now did u?
     
  10. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    I aint gonna change my u's into you's right not Princess. Sorry if can't handle that! I'm reaally only interested in the science.

    Well then TALK about the DIET and stop telling me that it is proposing to cut out carbs for the duration of the diet. It is not. Even Atkins knows that is not recommended.

    OK if thats what u really want, I'll try and see if I can track some of the articles down. Its been a long time though!
     
  11. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    Comparison of a low-fat diet to a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss, body composition, and risk factors for diabetes and cardiovascular disease in free-living, overweight men and women.

    Meckling KA, O'Sullivan C, Saari D.


    A Low-Carbohydrate as Compared with a Low-Fat Diet in Severe Obesity
    Frederick F. Samaha, M.D., Nayyar Iqbal, M.D., Prakash Seshadri, M.D., Kathryn L. Chicano, C.R.N.P., Denise A. Daily, R.D., Joyce McGrory, C.R.N.P., Terrence Williams, B.S., Monica Williams, B.S., Edward J. Gracely, Ph.D., and Linda Stern, M.D.


    Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2004 Jul;7(4):485-92.

    Wellcooked: It is without doubt, theoretically, that low carb intake should increase insulin sensitivity more than protein intake. Protein is KNOWN to have a much lower glycaemic index than carbs and so there will be less of an insulin "spike" associated with diabetes and obesity.


    Having said all the above, I could give u even more links on why the diet is very bad for u. But the whole point of the argument I was trying to make is that a high protein diet CAN result in fat loss through the insulin metabolic pathway.
     
  12. candy Registered Senior Member

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    Perhaps you should have read all the posts to the thread as well as all the books.
    Scientific papers are not without bias: studies usually produce the results the funder wants. Academia is one of the most ego driven places on the planet.
     
  13. Princess Science Dork Registered Senior Member

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    That's fine John but don't expect to get credibility for your point if you can't use correct grammar. I read a ton of scientific journal articles and I have yet to see one fraught with misspelled words and appalling grammar.

    Thanks for posting some articles that basically agree with what WellCookedFetus and Chunky have been saying for 4 pages. Good to see we're all in agreement.
     
  14. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    I have read the posts in this thread! Books will be more biased than papers by their very nature.
     
  15. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    I am not writing a paper for a journal on this website Princess!

    Exactly. If we all agree that a mechanism for fat reduction in Atkins is through a lowering of insulin then we DO all agree. Thats all I was trying to say in my latter posts

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  16. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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  17. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    Type I diabetes is associated with an inability to produce insulin. It is actually quite rare. The diet-induced diabetes is caused by too much insulin.
     
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    this article is about type 2.
     
  19. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly. It says that mice lacking the gene (JNK) have higher sensitivity, lower insulin, less obesity and are more healthy than those with the gene. Low levels of insulin are associated with health.
     
  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    the report was about insulin resistance, more insulin was needed because the mice could not detect the hormone as well as the controlled mice. If Insulin levels are low and glucose high it would emulate the same state as seen in the resistant mice.
     
  21. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    Yes but insulin resistance is caused by over-production of insulin after many years. U don't get insulin resistance when your insulin levels are low all your life. You're reading this the wrong way I think!
     
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Insulin resistance can also be genetic such as in this studies case.
     
  23. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Sugar with insulin is absorbed by cells. High blood sugar without insulin or resistance to insulin-induced absorption of glucose is a diabetic situation and they get fat. Dropping the blood sugar levels helps them hence low crabs. Constant absorption of glucose by insulin sensitivity did not cause obesity in the study mice, it cause them to grow thin. So the absorption of glucose or high glucose levels is not the cause of obesity, in diabetics the inability to absorb glucose cause them to grow fat.
     

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