Capitalism Doesn't Work... So What Would?

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by matthew809, Sep 22, 2008.

  1. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,721
    Whatever is better than Capitalism(which never really existed). Just because there is a system which works better than others before, doesn't mean there is something even better just around the corner.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    No, I'm sorry to inform you but I am correct - history proves it beyond ALL doubt.

    You are simply making the two most common mistakes that practically all young people make:

    1. Technology is the answer to everything - it is not.

    2. Human's basic nature can be changed - it cannot.

    You really need more time to study history - it constantly repeats itself with no ending - and spend more time experiencing the diversity (and depth) of human nature. While you could count on something like the "moral majority" of people to stick to your new system, there will MOST certainly be those who will not. Some will simply be too lazy to participate as they should and some will ALWAYS find a way to take advantage of the others.

    Look at the world around you. Not just at your family, neighborhood or the school you attend - but at the whole world. There are crooks and criminals everywhere that are taking advantage of other people simply because they can! Your wonderful system of advanced technology will not eliminate them - they and their replacements will be with you until the end of time.

    I realize that the full depth of what I'm saying will not sink into your mind easily. That's because you are thinking of a dream while I'm speaking of harsh and honest reality.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,396
    Young whippersnappers & their dreams. Why can't we all just get along? Because we can't. So there. All the half ass attempts of the past clearly show that any 3 quarter ass attempt will fail. Every system is rotten so let's stick with the rotten system we have now.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    There's nothing wrong with being young or with having dreams. The point where a problem appears is when anyone fails to realize the difference between possible and impossible dreams - and continues to push for the impossible.

    Yes, there are some pretty bad problems with our system - however, history has shown that it has stood the test of time while all other systems and versions have done nothing but eventually fail.
     
  8. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    To US voters: There is no reason for you to go $5000 /per person more into debt with Paulson’s plan. Please read post 53 at:

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2020983&postcount=53

    Paulson's plan helps the banks (and that is necessary) but it can be done with great assistance to Joe American, the real-estate industry, and PROFIT to Uncle Sam, by plan of post 53.

    If you prefer recovery plan at post 53, to Paulson's, copy the text and send to your Congressional representatives, NOW.
     
  9. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    480
    So what qualifies this country for having stood the test of time exactly? Apparently not much at all by your standards.

    Most successful businesses go through restructuring and reorganizing to maximize efficiency and productivity. As a company becomes more productive it can then afford to do things like increase benefits for employees, make more environmentally friendly initiatives, or support local organizations- positive things like that. Do you think Microsoft runs basically the same as it did when it began, or do you think maybe they changed dramatically with the times to stay competitive in the market? So in capitalistic terms... If America was a business, we would have no competition to keep us sharp. We would be a power-corrupted monopoly. Employees get screwed, but the owners stay happy.

    So I'm just saying that maybe we need a new business model for America. Is that really so impossible?
     
  10. Vkothii Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,674
    One of the problems is the perennial one of controls and regulations over the crooks, shysters, and snake-oil merchants who get their hands on real money, and real shares.
    Who work in the financial markets particularly, since that market is the one all the others need. If it falls apart so does everything else because there's no liquidity, as they say.

    Which is why this time, it's a bit different. Not a whole lot, though.
     
  11. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,311
    Bill Gates is considered one of the most greedy men on this planet, and, although he has donated an insane amount of money, he's pretty greedy. But tell me this, how many jobs has Bill Gates been solely responsible for? Thousands. What he indirectly did because of his greed was make the lives better for millions. Capitalism works.
     
  12. Vkothii Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,674
    Yes, Mr Gates is a bit of an Edison, or Ford, a successful capitalist. Capitalism isn't greed, and the desire for profit isn't a kind of greed either.
    Greed is when there's an expectation of greater than deserved payment, or deliberate stealing, that sort of thing. Bill Gates is at least 'honest', enough to recognise he can give away substantial wads of cash and still be richer than most. I believe he intends to give away most of his fortune eventually.
     
  13. allersby Banned Banned

    Messages:
    9
    The origional objections to capitolism stated at the beginning of this thread may be true, but no other system does much better.
    Socialism:Yeah. They're REALLY great on inflation, corruption, the number pf poor and homeless, economic meltdowns, and human rights.
     
  14. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    Please show me where I have said this COUNTRY has stood the test of time. Because I have NOT - I said that the system has stood the test of time.

    But that's irreverent anyway - it's just that I hate it when anyone claims I said something that I most certainly did not!!!

    Again with a distorted view of reality. You start off well enough but then spin off on some tangent.

    Of course businesses change over time, but not as drastically as you think. Microsoft has made NO "dramatic" changes since it started - what makes you think it has? It began by producing a computer operating system and still does. It has grown and added many other things as well but has NEVER gone through any restructuring at any time.

    And as to America being compared to a business, actually it IS. And the competition is other countries.

    Go ahead and propose a new business model - but unless it looks very similar to the current one, it will eventually fail. Do you actually think that millions of people have not tried already???
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    I'm not even sure I would say with all of it's problems - perhaps with all of People's problems.

    That said, we don't have a pure capitalistic system - if we did then the rest of these crappy banks would be going bust!

    And that Halliburton got all those sweat deals on the tax payers tab makes me want to puke!
     
  16. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    480
    So far, the only logic I've seen to counter my idea of a better system is:

    1) Millions of people have already tried communism and it didn't work, therefore there's no point in coming up with something better because.... well I guess just because
    2) People are greedy so therefore capitalism is the only system that would work
    3)Microsoft has never gone through restructuring, and therefore neither should America
    4)I'm too young to have a valid opinion
    5)I'm dreaming the impossible dream...

    Although these are all fantastic responses, I was actually expecting a little more critical feedback from sciforums members. I would urge anyone to go back and read my original thread starter where I laid out a few basic ideas about how this new system would work. So far no one has given any specific, relevant feedback about that.

    One of the main ideas I had was to completely do away with taxes(it's interesting that nobody commented on that). If you think about it, taxes are a very inefficient corrective-measure used to fix original inaccuracies. As far as the income tax, wouldn't it make more sense to pay citizens the right amount to begin with? Now this is just one example of inefficiency which actually ties in with everything else that is wrong with this system. America is full of these sorts of patches, or workarounds.

    So if you had to redesign the way people got paid while doing away with income tax, the most efficient and fairest way possible, how might you do it? How many others related systems would have to change in order to support this change? Isn't it worth a moment to think about?
     
  17. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,311
    Me=Supreme world dictator. And I mean supreme. If that's not an option, total anarchy.
     
  18. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    No, sorry, but it really ISN'T worth even thinking about.

    The real problem here, Matthew, isn't just that you are young. It's that being young hasn't given you enough time to study the social/elements of history nor to have had enough experience dealing with the diversity of people in the world.

    I have raised four kids - all adults now with their own families - and each of them went through the same stage you are in right now. They all complained that "life isn't fair", why should I pay more "shipping and handling" than the item cost, AND that taxes and the government system are wrong - "there should be a better way."

    As they got into their late teens and early twenties, they started learning the real lessons of life and why things work like they do. They all came back later and expressed how silly and naive they had been.

    I gave each of them the same answer: "I understand. Because I felt that way too when I was young and inexperienced."
     
  19. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,311
    I felt that way when I was twelve, also.
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    I wouldn't say there isn't a better system to do things. The American way isn't the only way.

    I think each system has a time and a place. Depends on the resources present, the work culture, what's important to the people, etc...

    Communism works swell in monasteries. Some even turn over a tidy little profit. Empire worked great for Rome, it also worked out quite well for the Spanish and the England and the Chinese and the Japanese. Also, the Japanese economic system under Tokugawa produced what IS Japanese culture and worked well for them for a couple hundred years then they declined. Singapore has done very well for itself, they basically have had a dictator.

    So, it depends on the country, the culture, the resources etc...


    In the OP you asked what is a better system. Well, suppose there was an AI that monitored everything. Then imagine each person was chipped. Each person was rewarded credit depending on their overall contribution to society as measured by some complex algorithm. So, the only way one got any credit was to do something positive in society. Everything from keeping your house tidy, to forming a group and starting a company that makes a successful product, each person would get credit. NOW, would this work? Maybe, maybe not. BUT, it COULD be a better system. Also, voting could be done in real time. Maybe no more government. As everyone is chipped there'd also be no need for police, stealing would not bring profit, selling drugs would not bring profit, actually, this AI could potentially stop people form committing murder. Well, maybe this would make an interesting experiment anyway....

    The point is IT could be a MUCH better system OT it could suck arse OR maybe for the right type of people it could work really well? Who knows.... never say never

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  21. matthew809 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    480
    First of all- to clarify solely for the sake of clarification, not relevance- I'm 29 years old... not 12... not early twenties.

    I've been around long enough to understand that many Americans have been getting screwed badly. I cannot unlearn that fact no matter how long I wait. Despite my thread heading, it's not just capitalism that's the problem, it's the American system in general. Maybe the perfect system is unrealistic, but there's nothing wrong with striving for perfection if only to meet somewhere in the middle. But you have to know what perfection could be before you can hope to meet it anywhere.

    I'm just sorry that you're at that old age where you've already stopped caring and there's nothing else to learn.

    A very fitting screen-name BTW.
     
  22. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,311
    Could someone direct me to the post where Matthew himself describes what the perfect government would be? Socialism?
     
  23. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    Alright, dummy! The gloves come off right NOW! I've been very, very kind and tolerant with you up to this point but your lashing out has changed that entirely.

    My age and screen name (which you are FAR from understanding!) has no bearing on the issue. It's only your very stupid, naive attitude that's showing here, not mine NOR any lack of caring on my part!!

    When you resort to disrespectful statements, you're playing with the wrong guy. Just keep on trying, if you wish, and I will show how each and every one of your ideas are nothing but sheer stupidity in action.

    And having carelessly revealed your age to be a full 29 just goes to prove that you are FAR, FAR less intelligent than we have been giving you credit for. Why/how? Because your ideas truly are those of a young teenager.:bugeye:
     

Share This Page