Can we change space into matter?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by NietzscheHimself, Jan 19, 2012.

  1. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, and you don't have to know how the universe works. All you have to do is breath the air and drink the Kool-Aid.

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    Space (volume) is measured in units of the cubic meter. The cubic meter has no mass in and of itself, it is simply a measure of the volume an object occupies in space. If you have a cubic meter of substance, the cubic meter is the volume of space that the object occupies. That says nothing of the mass of the object. You can have 1 cubic meter of oxygen at 10 psi, or you could have 1 cubic meter of oxygen at 5,000 psi. The mass of a cubic meter of oxygen at 5,000 psi is much more than the mass of a cubic meter of oxygen at 10 psi. The cubic meter is the measure of space, and the mass is the measure of matter in that space. You see how that works?
     
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  3. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    Say you manage to accurately measure a cubic metre of space with no matter in it (i.e. a cubic metre of vacuum).

    For how long does this cubic metre remain "1 cubic metre"?
     
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  5. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    A cubic meter of space is always a cubic meter of space. The infinite volume of space is just that, the volume of space. Mass resides in space and occupies volume in space. Mass changes with time. There is a big distinction between the volume of space and the mass that occupies that space.

    As I said previously, an example is of an internal combustion cylinder. The cylinder has a measurable volume. The volume in and of itself does not have mass, it is simply the measure of the quantity of space, measured in units of cubic meters with total disregard for the mass that occupies that space. You can then measure the mass contained in that volume separately.

    The cylinder could be filled by atmospheric pressure, or it could be filled by a supercharger. The same cylinder filled by atmospheric pressure of say 14.7 psi will have a much lower mass of air/fuel mixture than the mass of the air/fuel mixture contained in the cylinder filled by a supercharger at a higher psi. The volume of the cylinder is a separate issue than the mass of the contents of the cylinder.
     
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  7. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    No, that's only true if space doesn't change in volume. It does change, though, because every cubic metre of vacuum is expanding. This has nothing to do with how much matter there is in any cubic metre.

    You could set up some 'rigid' way of measuring a cubic metre and claim that since the measurement doesn't change, nor does the volume. But that would be an incorrect claim.
     
  8. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    You are talking about something completely different and are confused.

    Your definition of the universe is of the object the universe. You think the universe is like an object in space (like a huge ball), expanding, which means the ball is getting less dense as the particles that make up the ball are moving farther apart from each other, hence the distance between particles of the ball is increasing.

    I say the universe is an INFINITE volume, and the particles of the ball reside in the infinite volume. The volume of space that the particles occupy in the infinite volume is increasing as the particles move away from each other. The ball's volume is increasing as an object, but that doesn't mean the INFINITE VOLUME of the the universe is changing. The particles are in motion in the infinite volume of space.

    To top it off, as the particles move away from each other, the particles themselves act as smaller objects and on a smaller scale do the same thing as the larger object, they too are made of smaller components that are moving away from each other.

    In other words, as your object (the universe) expands and gets less dense, so too are the objects that make up the universe expanding, at EVERY LEVEL OF THE UNIVERSE.

    Every component in space is expanding, not just the "universe" object.

    Mass evolves to space!
     
  9. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    7,832
    Yes, you'll have to forgive my total lack of understanding of the Motor Daddy universe, sorry about that.
    I thought I was trying to describe a cubic metre of space, but point taken.
    No, I don't think I said anything like that at all. I just asked about how long a cubic metre of space (that is, a vacuum empty of particles of matter) remains a cubic metre. I thought the question was fairly easy to understand.
    I don't believe I mentioned the infinite volume of the universe, but just a cubic metre of it (minus, recall, any particles).
    How does a cubic metre of vacuum get "less dense" as it expands? There aren't any objects in a vacuum.
    The rest of your post appears to hinge on your somewhat confused interpretation of what measuring a cubic metre of space means.

    Please note: my post #22 wasn't actually directed at you specifically. I responded to your reply with the hope of correcting you about what I was asking. You haven't addressed the question I asked, you see.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  10. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    5,425
    A cubic meter of vacuum doesn't expand and get less dense. That is the direct answer to your question. Here is some additional information pertaining to my answer that will help explain my answer:

    The volume of space is infinite. It doesn't expand, it doesn't contract, it doesn't have motion, and it never changes. It is simply infinite volume. Another way to put it is no matter where you are in the universe at any point in the infinite volume, there is infinite distance away from you. You can't end distance in any direction. Infinite volume is space in every possible direction, with no boundary. I consider the ENTIRE volume, with ALL the mass that resides in it "The Universe."

    So, again, volume doesn't expand.

    What does expand is the components of an object. Many people in science think of "The Universe" as an object, like a galaxy, only much larger with many more components, some of the components being galaxies, which are also made of components. The object the universe is expanding because all the components are getting further away from each other. While all the components such as the galaxies are getting further away from each other the components components are getting further away from each other, and that is happening at every level of the universe. What drives the expansion of the universe (the object) is the expansion of the components that make up the universe (the object), resulting in the universe becoming less dense because it occupies more volume in the infinite volume of space.

    A cubic meter of volume is always a cubic meter of volume. If in the past long long ago the object the universe was sooooooo dense that all the mass of the universe was a cubic meter in volume, and then it expanded to a greater volume, that means the mass occupied a greater volume than the original cubic meter. That means the original cubic meter got less dense, as there was less mass in the original cubic meter because some of the original mass was expanded outside the original cubic meter.

    If you want to track the original mass as a whole then you have to say that the VOLUME of the mass was increasing. Greater volume with the same mass means less dense. So regardless of which way you look at it, mass becomes less dense.

    Why does it become less dense? Because mass is motion, and there is no free ride. Mass is lost to motion in accordance with the second law. It really is no different than the mass of the fuel in your fuel tank evolving to space through motion and heat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  11. NietzscheHimself Banned Banned

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    And space converges into mass!
     
  12. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    5,425
    No it does not, that is incompatible with the second law of thermodynamics. You can't turn volume into mass.

    Your body is an example. If you were to stop eating and drinking your body would continue to get less massive as the mass evolved to space through heat and motion. What you are saying is the opposite, that if you were to stop eating, heat and motion would converge and your body would become more massive. Do you see how silly that sounds?

    You put 20 gallons of fuel into your fuel tank, which has a specific mass at that time. You drive your car and the fuel is converted to heat and motion. As you drive your car the mass of the fuel is decreasing, to the point that you run out of fuel and can not produce heat and motion. It doesn't work in the opposite manner. No matter how hard you try, you can not turn that heat and motion back into 20 gallons of fuel.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  13. NietzscheHimself Banned Banned

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    867

    oh so mass only turns to energy. Energy can not turn into mass. Einstein would be proud of your progress. The whole shebang is made of matter. Two percent is atoms which we recognize as mass. The rest is some other type of energy.

    Look at a black hole. Energy goes in and the energies motion slows until we consider it mass. Or It gets flung around outside the horizon, combines with more energy and escapes more massive.

    Or in the case of a supernova. Extreme heat and pressure causes atoms to transform into energy. With no designated structure the explosion eventually cools to create more massive atoms. "volume" into mass...
     
  14. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    5,425
    Correct, and that is really the whole shebang. No need to try and justify the opposite, because the opposite is not possible, that would be like saying you can get 100% of what you put into motion back out of it. That is simply absurd. You are advocating perpetual motion. If you drove 20 miles in one direction in your car and converted a gallon of gas to energy, are you saying you could go in reverse and the process would reverse and you would get back that gallon of gas?? I say you use an additional gallon of gas if you go in reverse back to where you came from. What say you?
     
  15. NietzscheHimself Banned Banned

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    "Mass–energy equivalence does not imply that mass may be "converted" to energy, but it allows for matter to be converted to energy. Through all such conversions, mass remains conserved, since it is a property of matter and any type of energy. In physics, mass must be differentiated from matter. Matter, when seen as certain types of particles, can be created and destroyed (as in particle annihilation or creation)..."

    "When energy is removed from a system (for example in binding energy, or the energy given off by an atomic bomb) then mass is always removed along with the energy. This energy retains the missing mass, which will in turn be added to any other system which absorbs it. In this situation E*=*mc2 can be used to calculate how much mass goes along with the removed energy. It also tells how much mass will be added to any system which later absorbs this energy."Wikipedia
     
  16. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    5,425
    How do I get my gallon of gas back after I have converted it into energy? I want the entire gallon, not just some of it. I want 100%, ALL of it!!
     
  17. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    If an object such as the universe contains a specific mass, and is expanding, the mass is getting less dense. Entropy is at work. There is no reverse to entropy. In the big grand entire picture, the energy value of the specific mass of the universe is decreasing over time, as the volume of the mass is increasing. The mass is being converted to energy in such a manner that the mass of the universe is becoming closer to being in equilibrium with the infinite volume of space. The closer to equilibrium the less potential energy of that system. The second law is very clear about this and the second law has NEVER been wrong!!! You can't turn the heat you get from a burning log back into a log. Even if you tried, you would not get 100% of the original log back, because it takes work to recreate the log, and work is force times distance which occurs over a duration of time. Power=work/time. You can't reverse time you can only add to it. There is NO FREE RIDE!!!
     
  18. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    7,832
    So you think the universe isn't expanding? But observations show that it is expanding. So a cubic metre of vacuum is expanding, and it can't get less dense because it already is a least density. The density is constant but the volume changes, so where does the extra volume come from?
    And you have nothing except your opinion to back this up. You have no evidence that it's true.
    What drives the expansion of the components though?
    I know you can't see it, but that contradicts itself. In fact your entire post is a good indication that you have less than no idea what you're talking about.

    And you still haven't addressed the question I asked. And you won't, because you have no idea.
     
  19. NietzscheHimself Banned Banned

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    Great... We have devolved from quantum physics and into chemistry from a 100 million year old animal...

    We make something that converts Matter into energy and direct that energy to recombine in your gas tank as gas.
     
  20. NietzscheHimself Banned Banned

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    You can speed it up so far that it resembles the past.
     
  21. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    7,832
    If you're a particle physicist, mass is equivalent to energy measured in electron volts.
    No need to convert mass to energy or energy to mass because they're already the same thing.
     
  22. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    5,425
    Where do you come up with this stuff?

    So let's go with the concept that all the mass of the universe was once contained in a cubic meter of space. The mass expanded over time, and continues to expand over time.

    You say you can speed up time so much that it resembles the past?

    How does speeding up time make it look like the mass of the universe is returning back to the once cubic meter of volume it occupied in the past?? Are you saying it's possible that all the mass of the universe can suddenly start getting more dense and shrinking in volume, with no external force?
     
  23. NietzscheHimself Banned Banned

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    You take a cubic meter of mass wait 100 billion years and look it has expanded into the universe. Same amount of energy just more space to play with it.

    I follow real physics and exaggerate until I find a suitable answer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012

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