Can hydrogen peroxide be ionized?

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by draqon, Nov 22, 2008.

  1. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    Can molecule hydrogen peroxide be ionized? :bugeye:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    Sure, why not? Although the ion might not be too stable.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Roman Banned Banned

    Messages:
    11,560
    Wiki says it's a weak acid (=strong base), so I'm guessing it forms (-)O-O-H + H3O(+)

    Where (x) = charge.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Forceman May the force be with you Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    208
    Molecular Formula Error?


    I thought the stable molecular formula for hydrogen peroxide was 2H2O2. Your ionic formular conveys that there are only three oxygen atoms.
     
  8. Idle Mind What the hell, man? Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,709
    Yes, in Roman's example we have H[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]2[/sub] and water which takes the extra proton.
     
  9. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    well what I was wondering is...would ionizing hydrogen peroxide in a container make the hydrogen peroxide increase volume...and thus pressure.

    would it have any effect?
     
  10. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    roman feel free to correct me here but as far as i rember from the chem i just did if you netralise a substance (ie if its a acid like hydrogen peroxide you add a base) you will get ionised salts.

    I cant think off the top of my head what the salt would be though (this is a GUESS rember)

    I GUESS when mixed with an acid like Potassium hydroxide (KOH) what you would get would be K- O+ and water
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2008
  11. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Hydrogen Peroxide has a pKa of 11.62, meaning it's a strong base as has already been pointed out.

    KOH is totally dissociated, and is a base, so it has no pKa. Theoretically, a 0.1 molar solution of KOH would have a pH of 13.

    The reaction of Hydrogen peroxide as a base doesn't yield a salt, it's the acid that yields the salt.

    The reaction would be:

    HOO(-) + H3O(+) -> H2O2 + H2O

    The reaction is between the Hydroperoxide Ion (IIRC, that's the proper name) and the Hydronium provided by whatever acid you're adding to the solution. The products are Hydrogen peroxide, and water.

    Peroxide salts do occur, the peroxide anion is (-)O-O(-) .

    So Sodium peroxide has the formula Na2O2.

    Generally, peroxide salts are found by burning Group I and Group II metals in air.

    Metal peroxides (well, group I and II) can oxidize organic molecules to carbonates.

    Sodium peroxide, for example, is used to scrub carbon dioxide from the air and replenish oxygen by the following reaction:

    2 Na2O2 + 2CO2 -> 2Na2CO3 + O2.

    Barium peroxide gets used in tracer ammunition (by, I think the chinese, burns green(I think)).

    Edit: Put in the same charge convention as Roman - one of these days I'll figure out Latex.
     
  12. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    a weak acid isnt the same thing as a stong base. Now i freely admit i could be wrong i had to look it up but wikipedia has it listed as a weak acid NOT a base. So my apologies for the mestake, but blame wikipedia rather than myself this time

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    BTW the reason it says its a base in my post was that i started writing it before i checked it on wikipedia. I THOUGHT i had fixed them all but oviously not. Im not that stupid that i would think a base could neturalise a base

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  13. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    this is the link

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

    there for it is neutralised by a BASE not an acid
     
  14. thecollage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    431
    only in an ionizer. i believe the Sharper Image has one of those for sale.
     
  15. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    The term 'Weak Acid' refers to any substance that has a pKa of Greater than -2

    pKa is based on Ka which is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidity_constant


    Actually, I think I just worked out what happened - I got my constants fuddled. The reaction I dealt with is the reaction of the conjugate base.

    Ugh.

    The Hydroperoxide ion acts as a base, but Hydrogen peroxide is very mildly acidic.

    I know exactly what I did wrong, and it's too embaressing to speak of.

    Water has a pKa of 14, so anything with a pKa >14 is a base (it used to be the point where we started talking about pKb's instead).

    So Hydrogen Peroxide, with it's pKa of 11.65 is a weak acid.
     
  16. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    god that post is screwed up, for some stupid reason i tried to netrualise a strong acid with a weak acid. Bugger it, anyone know the formular for a weak base?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I cant think of any off the top of my head
     
  17. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Alanine, Ammonia, Methylamine, Pyridine (to name a couple).
     
  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    the only one i could think of off the top of my head was bicarbinate of soda and thats already been neutralised once so i would have NO idea where it went from salt form

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    If i take amonia (NH3) tell me if this is correct

    NH3 + 2H2O2 = N+ OH- + 2(H2O)?
     
  19. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Nawww.

    The Conjugate acid of Ammonia is the Ammonium anion, so the reaction would be:

    NH3 + H2O2 -> NH4(+) + HOO(-)

    I can't picture Ammonium hydroperoxide being terribly stable though. I suspect that you'd be more likely to get something like this happening:

    NH3 + 4H2O2 -> NO3(-) + H(+) + 5H2O

    Which would be a Redox reaction between the Ammonia and the Hydrogen peroxide, with the Ammonia becoming Oxidized to Nitrate.
     
  20. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    so interestingly this could never exist as a stable solid salt at room temp and pressure then?

    because hydrogen would become gas straight away. It can be electyolites in the blood though where free floating hydrogen ions can exist
     
  21. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    No, it's not Hydrogen gas that's being produced, it's protons, and they tend to hook up with the nearest water molecule, and form a Hydronium Ion - H3O(+). Something about being Small and strongly charged.

    But yeah, my recollection is that introducing Ammonia to Hydrogen Peroxide, the REDOX reaction would tend to out compete any acid-base reactions that might happen.
     
  22. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    ...

    people, I dont need an ammonium and ammonia ionization...

    I need hydrogen peroxide ionization in a chamber of pressure 3500 psi.
     
  23. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    and there is only hydrogen peroxide inside the tank and a way to ionize it, that is all.
     

Share This Page