Can artificial intelligences suffer from mental illness?

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Plazma Inferno!, Aug 2, 2016.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    If you handed me acid I would feel pain. Moreover when acid interacts with something we can clearly see the erosive results as hissing, bubbling, slowly disintegrating. These are signs of chemical stress placed on the object.

    This obvious physical stress may well be experienced by the object as quantum "bings".
    I living organisms the resulting pain is a mental/neural experience of pain, an introspective warning signal that something is wrong.

    I don't think this is so remarkable. All plants experience "warmth" (infra-red), and "cold" (frozen). Even the paramecium experiences "touch", but that is not a mental experience, it is a local sensory experience (kinda like a roomba vacuum cleaner).

    Considering the astounding capabilities evolution has bestowed on various organisms, I don't see the experience of pain or pleasure as an extra-ordinary evolutionary feat. It's an efficient neural signaling system. As "memory" is an efficient long term mirroring system.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Right. But I asked you how you would get a bunch of chemicals to feel pain. Not you.
     
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  5. gamelord Registered Senior Member

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    Of course the real answer is, you have no idea if they are sentient at all, and the only danger is the sheer amount of logical fallacies you routinely use.

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  7. akoreamerican Registered Senior Member

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    I think it's not so bad being free with your words. It's certainly not as bad as routinely thinking everyone is out to get you .
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    What about the rest of my post?
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    What sets pain apart from any other "controlled sensory experience"? It is an interpretation of the sensory experience of "touch". Hunger, sadness, happiness, etc., etc.?

    All organisms with neural networks seem to experience pain when injured. It is not a unique or rare phenomenon.
     
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  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    If we remove the emotional experience, an electrical short causes the connection to heat up and eventually disintegrate. That is an expression of injury. If an electrical connection is attached to a neural network, such as a person touching the shorted circuit, that person will feel the pain of the heat. And if he keeps holding the short, he will get burned also.

    I believe Penrose calls it a threshold event (quantum). In short, a threshold event is experienced by all that are subject to it. The difference is that if you are sentient this event is experienced as a sensory pleasant or unpleasant experience (the paramecium stops swimming during sex...

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    ).
    Else it is just a chemical cause <--> effect event (bing).
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  11. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    i think the "rare-ness" is the psychosis of disorder.
    an attempt to self actualise in a special relationship to something that has been atributed to a potential loss or negative input.

    testing as - once the rare-ness has been removed, does the event still hold a special signifigance ?
    is there any gender orientation around colectivism Vs Special-ism ?

    women have been genetically chosen to abide by the group to survive, while men have been selected to not be part of the group to survive.

    hardly a moral impass yet definiatively different in its consequential psychosis.

    does this relate to the incidence of schitzophrenia in men being higher than women ? etc etc...

    i.e "being rejected by a super hot woman who is well above my equal standard of visual hotness(or more soo lack there-of)

    the desire to not be just another one of the crowd and to assert a sense of superiorty(to a point of critical failure & loss) to then attempt to not lose is probably a variant form of ADHD cross over autism spectrum.
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I believe that after war or natural disaster statistical numbers often favor female births. More females are required to restock the population after population calamities.
    IMO, the psychosis stems from the fact that there are many more patriarchies than matriarchical societies. In many countries women are still considered chattel.
    Valuable possessions.
    The psychosis lies in the choice between the two fundamental relationships.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
  13. river

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    doesn't this thread depend ultimately on the programer of the ai ? it does
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No, not anymore. The thread is no longer subject to a programmer, but to a moderator, because it has acquired a life of it's own...

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  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    First things first. How do you get a bunch of chemicals to feel pain?

    Then we will move on to the rest of your post.
     
  16. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

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    Well the human body is a bunch of chemicals which feels pain

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    But I understand you are interested in something constructed (artificial) and has been talked about (perhaps) as being intelligent

    Guess unless the requirements to feel pain have been built in it not going to happen

    A set of conditions equivalent to the nervous system built in along with the required responses would do it

    Soooo you build in "artificial pain" which, for me raises the question about the original post.

    If you manage to build artificial intelligence does it automatically contain artificial mental illness OR would the builders of the artificial intelligence need to build it in (?)? OR have enough understanding of mental illness to leave it out?

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  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Fair enough, I'll have a stab at it.

    I believe in a natural law that in the abstract, all things tend to move "in the direction of greatest satisfaction". (IMO, gravitational attraction is a proof of this law.)

    From a similar abstract perspective, two positive or negative magnetic poles will repel each other . For each, their movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction is, "away from here". They are not "compatible".

    OTOH, a positive and negative pole will attract each other and "movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction is "stick to it". Magnets are literally physically attracted to each other .
    That's weird .... for non-sentient objects.

    As I understand it chemical chiralty acts very much like magnetic forces where left handed molecules attach easily to right handed surfaces (and vice versa) and form strong bonds.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_(chemistry)

    According to Hazen, humans use some 500 different types of bio-molecules in their physical patterns.

    As I understand it chemical chiralty acts somewhat like magnetism where left handed molecules attach easily to right handed surfaces (and vice versa) and form strong bonds. Left handed molecules don't "like" left handed surfaces. Chemicals display certain "likes' and "dislikes" toward each other, and at their most creative potential fulfilled can result in human beings. No mean feat for inanimate matter to acquire a form of pseudo-intelligence, leading to degrees in expression of consciousness in living beings.

    Certain chemical reactions can result in stable more complex patterns, an evolutionary advantage and a new state of emergent proto sentience, eventually leading to "organic intelligence".
    I admit its an abstract perspective.

    But I believe, this is what Penrose advances. A form of proto-sentient response mechanism is already present at extremely small scales and influences the pseudo-sentient mathematical constants of "information transmission" properties of matter. I find that concept eminently reasonable, else we have a cunundrum of how did intelligence emerge in the first place. Even if intelligence was a mutation it must have taken a long , long evolutionary time and started from humble beginnings, no?

    IMO, atoms like to be comfortable, they like to have a stable distribution of protons, electrons, and neutrons. If these values are not in balance, strange things can (and do) happen. Things tend to die.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  18. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

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    AND
    AND
    PHYSICS - nothing else

    Intelligence is trial and error acting on stored information (memory) and adjusting the memory (updating) according to the feedback

    Both
    • positive feedback, (that works - remember that as working), and
    • negative feedback (that doesn't work - don't bother doing that again)
    need to be stored. Such positive feedback (including the positive feedback about the negative results) leads to a snowball rolling down hill effect

    Rapid growth and a increasing pace of knowledge acquisition

    Another advantage of a increasing intelligence is the ability to pass on knowledge (teach) so others don't have to, as the saying goes, reinvent the wheel

    As i understand KoKo the gorilla absorbed much information but as I understand made no attempt to pass on (teach) any of the learning to others

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  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    She never had a social life except with humans and cats. She did communicate her grief at the loss of AllBall, her chosen manx kitten, which she had named herself. She loved to play jokes with people and showed remarkable abstract associative capabilities.
    After she was told that AllBall was run over, Koko sat at the window for days grieving for AllBall, which she signed as "Koko love AllBall" and "AllBall not coming back".

    But I am most interested in the Slime Mold a single celled hive polyp which shows remarkable rudimenrary mathematical abilities through its brainless hive-mind, a sentient pseudo intelligent organism. Living chemical dynamism.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  20. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

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    At the preserve, Koko lived with another gorilla, Michael, who also learned sign language, but he died in 2000. She lived with a male gorilla, Ndume,[19] until her death.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)

    Nothing I noted indicate she taught any of her knowledge although Michael, who also learned sign language seems, to me, that Michael was being taught sign language but not by Koko

    From other tests Koko seems to be at the level of a 5 year old. This, in the Wikipedia entry, is said to be hard to establish and, owing simply to one, a human, the other a gorilla, not being a realistic comparison

    I do recall a test involving kids and gorillas being offered bananas, one bunch being larger. When a bunch was selected the other bunch was given

    Pick the bunch of 5, get the bunch of 3.

    At about 5 kids work out pick the bunch of 3 get the bunch of 5

    Seems gorillas do not work this out

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  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe the males she met were to old to teach. She never had a baby.
    Was she trying to teach the kitten? How would we or the kitten know? Apes naturally communicate with body language as well as rudimentary verbal communication, but we are insensitive to subtle body language.
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But Lemurs do. A Lemur was trained to select the fewest number of symbols in order to receive a reward. In hundreds of varied tests the Lemur was able to choose between quantities as well as college students. It's cognition of quantity (without counting)) rather than another clue was equal to many students and faster than some.
    It's cited in the clip of NOVA's "The Great Math Mystery".
     
  23. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

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    Penny Patterson, who had custody of Koko and who had organized The Gorilla Foundation, wrote that Koko cared for the kitten as if it were a baby gorilla.

    True. Hard to know if teaching occuring or anthropomorphism occuring

    Might take a further observer (or several) who are some distance from the situation

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