Calling all keyboard protestors, ranter and ravers

Discussion in 'About the Members' started by Mrs.Lucysnow, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thats just splitting hairs, Mubarak was around for 27 years, it was the extremity of economic burden which caused the people to revolt not a desire for democratic representation. The sign says it all: One Goal - Social Justice for All
     
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  3. Gustav Banned Banned

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    true but distinctions can be discerned
    it gets a bit circular tho
     
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  5. Gustav Banned Banned

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    look again at your posts and pov please.
    here, lets just cut to the chase


    given that hypothetical....


    ..do you see that being met? what do you recommend?
     
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  7. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Just because I disagree with you, does not mean I agree with them. Everything else in this 'discussion' follows from that assertion.

    The hypothetical is bogus, so your premise is flawed from the start.

    You've started from a flawed premise, come to the obvious conclusion, and from that you're asserting that the error is mine.

    Which is to be frank, assinine at best, especially in light of some of the other comments I have made in this 'discussion'.

    In the case of your absurd example (most cities have open spaces open 24/7, in fact I'm fairly sure that, short of curfews. I have yet to see one that doesn't) my suggestion would be to follow the example of Occupy Wallstreet, base out of a privately owned space.
     
  8. Gustav Banned Banned

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    are you maintaining that the hypothetical is theoretically impossible?
    is that what you mean by bogus?


    quote the relevant parts
     
  9. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    If you want to ignore the possible exemption that I mentioned, sure.

    How's this for a start:
    I mean, one of the points you've missed in amonst all of this is why were the protests dispersed. You've lept, feet first to the assumption that it must be about the suppression of freedom of speech. The only thing I have done is to be the idiot that points out that that isn't neccessarily the only available explanation, and isn't even a neccessary one.

    I mean, stop and think about it for a moment.

    The NYPD have stated publicly that they can not and will not evict the occupy wall street movement until they recieve a complaint from the land owners.

    That neccessarily implies that Occupy Oakland and Occupy Chigao were dispersed because the police recieved complaints from the land owners. From context (the comments about Occupy Chicago begging for permits) I infer that Occupy Chicago are occupying a public space of some kind, I infer, from context, that it's a space that's ordinarily open to the public 24/7, and so the logical corrollary of all of this is that Chicago City Hall filed a request/complaint to have them evicted, that someone in the police department felt held sufficient merit to action. Does that make city hall neccessarily corrupt, and trying to oppress their freedom of speech? Not neccessarily. As I've previously suggested, they may be in violation of city bylaws that are ostensibly there to protect the rights of the general public to use public spaces, or it could be that City Hall have received sufficient complaints of a nature that have prompted them to take action. If they have there should be a <hint>PUBLICLY DISCOVERABLE RECORD</hint > (you probably wouldn't get complainant details, but you should at least be able to get numbers, complaint types, and maybe even times and dates). But again, stop and consider, for a moment, that Occupy Wall Street have themselves suggested (see the blog I posted earlier) that they have been having problems with increasing crime rates, and new-comers who don't understand how things have to work.
     
  10. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    To put it another way, the most I am saying is that all that is required for events such as the evictions to come about is for people to be officous (may not be the best word), and do their job to the letter, and follow the law to the letter.
     
  11. Gustav Banned Banned

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    thank you, herr trippy

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    i think i know what you are getting at......

    A Speakers' Corner is an area where open-air public speaking, debate and discussion are allowed. The original and most noted is in the north-east corner of Hyde Park in London, United Kingdom. Speakers there may speak on any subject, as long as the police consider their speeches lawful, although this right is not restricted to Speakers' Corner only. Contrary to popular belief, there is no immunity from the law, nor are any subjects proscribed, but in practice the police tend to be tolerant and therefore intervene only when they receive a complaint or if they hear profanity.​

    ...ja, that how you protest against systems and govts

    /cackle


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    seriously? there can never come a time when our freedom to do shit is severely curtailed by some despotic govt? how do you know this?
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  12. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Soap Boxing was rejuvenated in the early 1900s . Reclaiming public rights to out cries of distress. It became a world wide event . The northwest United States is attributed to the revitalization ( Seattle ) That is not were it stated . It started right here in Missoula by a 19 year old Russian Girl down town on a wooden box. I forget her name. It became a world wide event .

    I am going to see if I can find her on the internet . She is recorded in the history of Missoula

    O.K. then Edit after me little trip across time and space in a heart beat . God the internet is mind blowing .
    "Elisabeth Gurley Flynn " a ginger no less . Described as a striking 19 year old red head when she got to Missoula .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_fights
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  13. Gustav Banned Banned

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    trippy sputters: the bylaws! the ordinances. public nuisance! urination! stalled traffic! the...the..the overnight goddamn camping!
     
  14. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Once again, not what I actually said

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  15. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Really now?

    Do I?
     
  16. Gustav Banned Banned

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    yeah
    go back and read. it is right there in black and white
    you are unwilling to make any accommodation due to a fanatical dedication to the letter of the law. you recommend they protest out of their houses (private spaces)

    see here


    all parks have curfews in the united states. all i did was expand the hours for the purpose of the hypothetical. it is not inconceivable that it could happen yet you blather about flawed premises.

    if some despot comes into power and rules that parks will be open for 2hrs a day, you will assert that any protest against the govt in those spaces have only that narrow window of opportunity. if they do not like it, they can find a private space. that is what you maintain


    that is just silly.
    i rail against a generosity of spirit towards ones own citizens. deploy the police to safeguard the protesters. give them porta potties. be an enabler of democracy rather than some legalistic pig invoking the law

    you know what? deploy fema!

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  17. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Nope, not what I said, nor is it implied by what I have said. At no time have I stated whether I am for or against the fanatical application of the letter of the law, at most all I have done is suggest that that is a 'reasonable alternative' to these all this noise about corruption and oppression of freedom of speech.

    LOL.
    Again, not what I said
    /snort
    Zuccotti Park, formerly called Liberty Plaza Park, is a 33,000-square-foot (3,100 m2) publicly accessible park in Lower Manhattan, New York City, privately owned by Brookfield Properties.
    Source
    Privately Owned Public Spaces in Downtown Manhattan CD1

    I assure you the blather is yours.

    First off, not all parks in New Zealand have curfews, many don't. The Octagon where Occupy DUnedin is currently sited does not, neither do The Oval, or the myriad of sports fields, playgrounds, or spaces similar to the octagon, however Dunedin Botanic Gardens does, and I can think of other spaces that are closed between (actually physically locked) between (for example) 6am and 6pm.

    It seems you're wrong about Zuccotti park as well.
    Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said Wednesday that the department could not bar protesters from Zuccotti Park since it is a public plaza that is required to stay open 24 hours a day.

    "In building this plaza, there was an agreement it be open 24 hours a day," Kelly said of the park near the World Trade Center, which is owned by Brookfield Office Properties but operates as a public space.
    Source

    Even the 1am to 6am curfew in Central Park is seldom enforced.

    As I have stated repeatedly, Occupy Wall Street have been smart about their choice of where to occupy.

    Not in the slightest.

    So then you're just catching up with the rest of the world then? The Dunedin City Council made a portaloo available to Occupy Dunedin, and has even offered them an alternative venue.
     
  18. Gustav Banned Banned

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    good one eh?

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    methinks you must be the most misunderstood creature in the whole of sci
    however rather than blame my extrapolation of your sentiments, i rather you focus on your delivery

    plazas, in most if not all cases, are different from parks. it is a...hmm... trafficway. it has to remain open

    and yes venture out to central park during curfew and you will either get ticketed or escorted out or both depending on the disposition of the law enforcer
     
  19. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    I tend to be 'true neutral', in essence, I was presenting the 'lawful good' perspective as a counterpoint to the accusations of corruption. I have been known, from time to time, to present an argument that I morally, or ethically disagree with as an unconsidered counterpoint.

    Perhaps. I'm not sure what the designation of the Octagon is, other than it's a city owned publicly accessable space, that's opened 24/7.

    There have been meen Saturday mornings spent by me there, sitting quietly, shrugging off the fog of alcohol and eating greasey fried things.

    Either way, though, Zuccotti Park is still designated as a park, is it not? It just happens to be a publicly accessable, privately owned park that is open 24/7.
     
  20. Gustav Banned Banned

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    the old name was liberty plaza park and it seems more like a plaza than park

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    where?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  21. Gustav Banned Banned

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    NYPD Saboteurs​


    “What we’re trying to build here,” said Jeff Smith, a member of the Occupy Wall Street press working group, “is a model for the bigger society we’d like to see.”

    And there’s the rub: The “model” civilization that’s sprung up at Zuccotti is itself increasingly divided between the stakeholders in the nascent movement who feel invested in the emerging economic, social and cultural causes of “the 99%,” and hangers-on, including a fast-growing contingent of lawbreakers and lowlifes, many of whom seem to have come to Zuccotti in the last week with the cynical encouragement of the NYPD.

    The watch, though, has only powers of persuasion and pressure to try and enforce the rules, and no way to remove people from a public park. The police, whom many occupiers see as the enemy and who work under a mayor who’s made no secret of his distaste for the occupiers, have little reason to help them maintain order, and rarely seem to have entered the park over the last week for anything short of an assault. When officers have gone in, a wave of people carrying drugs (or with other reasons to fear arrest) moves away from them while others circle tightly around, cameras out. Even when organizers have requested their intervention, police enter to a mixed chorus of “brutality” and “pig” calls side by side with chanted reminders that “you are the 99%.”

    But while officers may be in a no-win situation, at the mercy of orders carried on shifting political winds and locked into conflict with a so-far almost entirely non-violent protest movement eager to frame the force as a symbol of the oppressive system they’re fighting, the NYPD seems to have crossed a line in recent days, as the park has taken on a darker tone with unsteady and unstable types suddenly seeming to emerge from the woodwork. Two different drunks I spoke with last week told me they’d been encouraged to “take it to Zuccotti” by officers who’d found them drinking in other parks, and members of the community affairs working group related several similar stories they’d heard while talking with intoxicated or aggressive new arrivals.

    The NYPD’s press office declined to comment on the record about any such policy, but it seems like a logical tactic from a Bloomberg administration that has done its best to make things difficult for the occupation — a way of using its openness against it.

    “He’s got a right to express himself, you’ve got a right to express yourself,” I heard three cops repeat in recent days, using nearly identical language, when asked to intervene with troublemakers inside the park, including a clearly disturbed man screaming and singing wildly at 3 a.m. for the second straight night.

    “The first time I’ve heard cops mention our First Amendment rights,” cracked one occupier after hearing a lieutenant read off of that apparent script.

    “A lot of you people smell,” a waggish cop shot back later after an occupier asked if he might be able to help find more appropriate accommodations for a particularly pungent and out-of-sorts homeless man.

    “The police are saying ‘it’s a free for all at Zuccotti so you can go there,’” said Daniel Zetah, a member of several working groups including community affairs. “Which makes our job harder and harder because the ratio is worse and worse.”

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/...st-sides-plaza-article-1.969320#ixzz1cTHxJoGP
     
  22. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    I remember now.
    Right from Day 1, Occupy Dunedin was asked to be out of the Octagon by November 11 for the Armistice day services, so that the rest of the community could use the space.

    The DCC offered Occupy Dunedin an alternative venue, and provided them with a portaloo for the interim. Occupy Dunedin turned down the alternative venue, and were subsequently served with a Trespass notice, requiring them to have vacated the area by 8pm last night. As of this posting, (11:30am NZDST) they have not moved on, neither have they been evicted by the police.

    The trespass notice is available here.

    And the Octagon Webcam is available here.
     
  23. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    For some perverse reason, I find this somewhat humorous.

    An IT professional has been charged with assault after allegedly headbutting a member of Occupy Dunedin last night.
    Police were called to the Octagon shortly after 9.30pm following reports one of the protesters has been assaulted, Senior Sergeant Brian Benn said.

    It appeared the man, who had earlier attended Melbourne Cup celebrations at Wingatui, decided to "remove the protesters himself".

    The Dunedin man began pulling out tent pegs, before headbutting a member of the group, he said.

    Alcohol was believed to have been a factor.

    The 49-year-old was charged with common assault and was expected to appear in Dunedin District Court next week.
    source
     

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