Building a semi human powered flying device

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Jarno, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. Jarno Registered Member

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    Hi guys,

    I'm Jarno from the Netherlands and a new member here on this forum. I would like to share my project with u science-fanatics. I'm pretty sure I found a way to fly, using human power in combination with bionic extensions.

    I’ve been working on a concept for the last couple of years alongside my fulltime engineering-job. Now I took a sabbatical to fully focus on further designing and eventually built it.

    If you're interested, follow me on twitter/facebook, my website or on this thread, where we can have discussions about my project. I'm pretty sure u guys can help me in the future with relevant feedback.

    grtz Jarno Smeets (The Netherlands)

    w w w.humanbirdwings.n e t/

    twitter: @jarnosmeets80
     
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  3. phlogistician Banned Banned

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  5. Jarno Registered Member

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    Something else

    That's definately something else.

    Instead of making use of an aircraft, I'm going to attach wings to my arms and implement some bionics on the wings.

    Check my website, that's where I roughly explain what my idea is. Soon I'll post further and more detailed information about the concept.

    Jarno
     
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  7. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    A couple of questions:

    Have you calculated how large the wings will be, and do they flap?

    How do plan to power the "bionics"?
     
  8. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    and what bone structure are you going to attach said bionics to?
     
  9. Jarno Registered Member

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    thanks for the comments guys. I affectionately call it bionics, but it will be rather more like an intelligent power expansion attached to the back of my body and arms. It of course won't have direct connections with the body's bonestructure. Call it robotics if you want.

    The wings will be flapping with usage of muscular power, assisted by this electric power expansion (driven by Li-poly battery packs).

    Wingspan/size, according to my calculations they must be humungous.. If you keep following the process, prepare for a lot of trial & error diy.

    grtz,
    Jarno
     
  10. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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  11. Jarno Registered Member

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  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Before you start I'd recommend you learn to skydive and then learn to wingsuit. That's pretty close to what you describe here. I think you'll get a very real and immediate impression of what's easy to do and what's hard.
     
  13. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    The problem with your concept is your arms aren't very strong in the "wing flapping" position. At best your arms are only going to produce about 50-80 pounds of force..which would be about 1/10 (or less) of the amount force required to even hold the wings level..much less flap them. The mechanical aspects of the design will be doing virtually all the work...so it really doesn't make much sense to include arm power at all...and just go with a pure mechanical system.

    Here's an example of an a Ornithopter:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-qS7oN-3tA

    I think if you do a few "back of the napkin" calculations, you'll see why they're aren't any videos on YouTube of any wing flapping flying machines attached to peoples arms.

    Edit: Here's an experiment you can try: Strap a 2m long pole to each one of your arms, then place 2 chairs 4m apart. Lie on your stomach between the two chairs, and place the pole tips on the seats of the chairs. Now try to pull yourself level by just using your arms.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2011
  14. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Cool link,.. and now imagine a person strapped to the central spar of that wing, being flung up and down. This device Jarno envisages had better come with a sick bag dispenser.
     
  15. Jarno Registered Member

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    Hey MacGyver,
    Thanks again for thinking with me. Arms shouldn’t be positioned in exact line of the wings, but in a more efficient angle (so the pectoralis, deltoids and biceps are more operable). Even then our muscles would never deliver enough power to intercept wings forces. The idea is to use the arms not only as source of power, but also as a ‘guide for movements’. These movements will be interpretated and eventually, by the electric power expansion, be converted into the needed amount of extra pull/stabilize power. All our muscular power can reduce the battery usage, and stretch the scope of flight.

    I’m aware of the ornithopter project you mentioned in the youtube link, that is actually a beta version of the ‘snowbird’ which has even bigger wings!

    @phlogistician: a sickbag dispenser, might be an interesting and necessary addition…

    Ps: Just posted new blogcontent about inspirational, historical projects.
     
  16. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    No offense Jarno, but your sounding like a "dreamer", not an engineer. Dreamers don't worry about details or feasibility, they just fantasize about things without fully thinking them through or worrying if the technology even exists to make it happen. There's nothing wrong with dreaming..sometimes it leads to good ideas, but a good engineer can look at a dream and determine if it's feasible.

    As far as I can tell, you're still in the dreaming phase. "I envision a set of wings attached to my arms that are powered" seems to be as far as you have gotten with the design. That works for science fiction, but not with science reality. Powered exo-skeletons exist in prototype, but they are heavy and are far from the most efficient way of flapping wings. Attaching the wings to your arms seriously restricts the amount and range of motion the wings can have, and over complicates the design. Then there's the money. How to you plan to fund this? Are you a millionaire with a couple hundred thousand dollars to burn?

    I'm not trying to be harsh...but don't see this idea ever getting off the ground. (pardon the pun)

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  17. Daedelus Registered Senior Member

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    Your information may be somewhat out of date on the powered exos. Given the casualty rate from the current wars and the number of returning service men and women with amputated limbs, the US govt. is pouring millions into powered prosthetics. So, if we can build new arms and legs, why not wings.

    Good point about the money though. With enough of it, we can build anything we can conceive of.

    Daedelus
     
  18. Daedelus Registered Senior Member

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    That's not an ornithopter. That's an airplane with loose wings that flop up and down.

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  19. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    I'm talking about an exo-skeleton that is capable of applying close to 1000 lbs of force....given Jarno's design of attaching wings to arms. The point is...even if it exists..its not something you can go and buy at Home Depot. Jarno wants to build this himself as a DIY. Unless he's a billionaire that can contract the same companies that work for the US military, it's not going to happen.
     
  20. Jarno Registered Member

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    try to leave the beaten track, can't place links yet unfortunately but google: "DIY exoskeleton"
     
  21. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    Just post the link the same way you did in your OP.
     
  22. Daedelus Registered Senior Member

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    I just met Jarno but from what he's posted, we are very close in our views as to what is possible. Very true that the technologies needed to create the kind of machine we both envision are right on the cutting edge. But the fact is that they exist right now. Most of the work has been done and all that is required is to put the pieces together.

    If I had the money today, I'd be hiring engineers like Jarno and putting the thing together. Since I don't, the next best thing is to talk about it and get enough discussion like this going so that someone who does have the money or who knows how to put it together can get involved.

    My own blog at daedelus.typepad.com/blog/ has plenty of links to the technologies and arguments in favor of the ideas that Jarno and I are suggesting.

    Be skeptical. Look at the data, then decide.

    Daedelus
     
  23. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Seems basic maths eludes you. MacGyver posted a simple experiment, about strapping some pieces of wood to your arms, and then trying to support yourself on a couple of chairs. You won't be strong enough because they are levers, working against you.

    Fraggle posted some maths, wrt wing span and body mass. To lift a human using flapping wings would require a huge wing. You also saw Mac's vid, showing how much undulation there would be, we are talking quite large forces here, which therefore have large energy requirements. If you knew anything about prostheses, you'd know that energy density and making simple legs strong enough to perform is hard enough.
     

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