Buddhism vs. Religion

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by kr8m3r_78, Feb 25, 2004.

  1. Hideki Matsumoto ñ{ìñÇÃóùâ?ÇÕêSÇÃíÜÇ©ÇÁóàÇ ÈÅB Registered Senior Member

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    Buddhists also beleive in the "non ego" so humbleness is of great importance. Ego leads to the frictions of others and will result in competition. Competition will result in frustration, anger, suffering.. ( anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering). An example of how to apply this is real life.. You are walking along the street and Mr.Z bumps into you and says "Fuck you" and gives you a shove, "you simply reply hi there, nice to meet you too/ have a nice day" Mr.Z walks off wondering what the hell you were on!
     
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  3. Gravity Deus Ex Machina Registered Senior Member

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    The main kinds of Buddhism

    * Theravada
    * Mahayana
    o Pure Land
    o Tibetan
    o Zen
    o Korean Zen (Son)

    Here in America you mostly see folks adhering to a new-aged version of Zen Buddhism - there are many more kinds than that.

    Here is one of the more interesting ones (Tantric Buddhism - sexual pantheism):

    http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/tantra.htm
     
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  5. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    i dont want you to think i am doing a 'lets have ago at buddhists' or anything. what i am exploring is for myself too, and to do so i must boldly question and encourage others to question the 'sacred', which may involve deep held beliefs

    what i have noticed from recent conversations with several other Buddhists at another forum, one confessing to be into Tibetan Buddhism, is that they have all left the conversation. i see this departure as a copping out. a nonwillingness to debate about the premises of their Buddhists doctrine

    ok, Tantra, i am familiar with it. in my notes i have heard that Tantra as employed by Tibetan Buddhist men merey USe their partner so as to perfect thier blief in their psiritual vehicle--so there is no sense of egalitarianism or respecting the Goddess/woman..

    when i read you link this is verfied in the tenets of the belief which still insist in seeing reality as illusory. thus as said from the premise they COULD -if so desired- regard what ever they might do, rape, incest, etc, as 'alright'...cause reality is all an illusion

    well it aint! it is as real as you like. or one could asy it is and it isn't. because what we do is--and this is shared by other patriarchal religious doctrine and ideologies (secular etc) is divide reality into abstrations and extremes. so for example we may believe it is 'illusion' without realzizing the opposite of that abstract concept is 'real'. do you see what i mean

    so, i then am seeing tantra understood like that as really masculinized and childish. like a kid in a choclate factory getting sick

    and the idea of doing tantra for 'transcendence'......why not do ecstatic ritual for the celebratory -ness of it. not for getting away...as in trancendence. the opposite of trasncendence is immanence. it is both simulattanously. this immanence is DEPTH.......both happen simulataenously in ecstasy

    someone spke about having 'non-ego'? non-ego doesn't make any sense. i have met Budddhists who do stuff for 'merit'...is that not having an ego? so ADMIT it. of course we are a foci of experience which has been termed 'ego'. there is nothing wrong with this, as long as you dont get carried away and start battering people.........or becoming Hitler or whatever. what ego needs rather is flexibility....feeling into roles without getting confused A role is 'you'. that's it
     
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  7. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    ...ok, that's true, there is no separate self to transcend, however many do have the idea of self which can cause them suffering. Transcending this self means to recognize it for what it is. This transformation does not conflict with being a dynamic being of changing moods and feelings. By "just what the Buddha ordered, I mean like "just what the doctor ordered", I'm agreeing with you, Buddha also wanted us to "see through it", I don't mean to suggest he demanded it as an order.

    ...Well, the truth can't be told, but there are methods to help those seekers who are curious. These methods are indirect, like the koan, which, far from initially clarifying things, creates confusion, because intellectual answers are not an appropriate response. Not that there is anything wrong with being intellectual, that certainly has it's place. One requirement of learning anything is being humble, and admitting when you don't know something, the student of Zen is the one that approaches the master, so the idea that some are more advanced is inherent in this relationship. I didn't mean to suggest a connotation of superiority, like they are somehow better people. Fundamentally, we are all in the same boat. There is always the possibility of this relationship being abused, we should not follow others blindly.

    I'm not sure what the challenge is exactly, but it's welcome.

    Some people are certainly mentally ill, (some have been friends of mine) and need medication, it's the only effective remedy so far, and if we do find another, I'm sure it will have something to do with brain chemistry. I don’t want to live in a society that doesn’t consider schitzophrenia to be a problem.

    The buddhas were a threat to oppressive systems, if you're not part of the problem, you are part of the solution. I also believe a possible solution to the inherent violence of humans is some kind of drug, like Huxley's Soma, or something natural, since enlightenment seems to be too much trouble for some people.

    Buddhism's essence is not a belief system, you don't have to feel guilty for what you are, that is not the intention. Enlightenment is more ordinary than ordinary, it has to do with relinquishing control, allowing yourself to be ordinary. If you visit a foreign country, you still come back home eventually, but with a new perspective, that is what enlightenment is. On the surface, everything is the same, but you are changed. I think you realize the extent to which we are trapped in ideas, belief systems, basic premises; what seemed ordinary, from a new perspective, seems like a bad joke. I still pay taxes, but nations are silly experiments in mass delusion. We can play the game without being taken in by it, we need to see behind the curtain of our minds, cause there's no wizard, just some jokers pulling strings. I think you want me to define what enlightenment is so you can judge if it’s a worthy thing, but that can’t be done. If I could describe it so you could understand, you would be enlightened, too.

    The intent is to allow you to see for yourself wether many aspects of reality are indeed illusory, not simply to make you adopt this as a belief.
    NO, Buddhism is not nihilism. It is so much more important to get along with others when you see that between you and them there is no separation. It's the same thing Jesus was talking about when he said love your neighbor as yourself, because we really are one. The illusion is separateness, the reality is unity. But, since everything is filtered through our minds before we percieve it, everything we see of reality is not reality, it is our mind.
    Buddhism as an idea is open to corruption, Buddhists are open to corruption, however the essence of Buddhism, the central realization is still vital and alive in the world. If all we know of Buddhism is the dogma, then we still know nothing about it.
     
  8. Hideki Matsumoto ñ{ìñÇÃóùâ?ÇÕêSÇÃíÜÇ©ÇÁóàÇ ÈÅB Registered Senior Member

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    I think you are very confused (clouded) dueney about "ego." unfortunately you are thinking in western terms of "ego" ego in Buddhism is the selfishness and pride that cause others to suffer. This is what it is, so basically you can say this is humbleness.
    think of Buddhism as the water flowing over and around the rock in a raging rapid. You will just flow over the rock (obstacle) without much friction, and over time you will overcome the obstacle and wear it down to nothing.
    Buddhism has been and is open to corruption just as any other religion! agreeed.
    Two groups in Japan are corrupting Buddhism are the Sokka Gakkai and Nichiren-Shoshu.
    Full of anger they are. Not very Buddhist I think!!
     
  9. kula (Memes enclosed) within Registered Senior Member

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    If enlightenment is the removal of delusion, as I think someone said earlier, then surely the thought or concept of buddhism is also delusion and all results obtained from it delusion also?

    Ive also been chatting on a forum for astral planing and the similarites in techniques are very similar.A couple of things ive noticed with the people chatting about astral planing is that a) they are attempting to rid themselves of ego's and b) all their experiences are still centred around themselves as individuals. I mean by this that on the astral plane there is an astral 'them' that moves around the environment.

    I dont know how far i can push this parrallel, but would a concept of 'individuality' also be an ego ? In other words, ego's may prevent us from 'seeing' beyond our constructed meanings and the concept of individuality may prevent us 'being' beyond ourselves.

    Would a truly enlightened person have to be totally unaware of both themselves and any system of enlightenment as being seperate from themselves, ie, experiencing all as one? and once that state was reached, would they ever be able to return ?

    Basically, is Enlightenment (with a capital E) actually possible for a mere mortal ?
     
  10. Hideki Matsumoto ñ{ìñÇÃóùâ?ÇÕêSÇÃíÜÇ©ÇÁóàÇ ÈÅB Registered Senior Member

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    Kula missed the point and is headed 500miles to the right going due S.W.

    -elightenment can be attained by anyone. Even Animals can.
    Please read the last post Kula... ego is defined as (in my last post)
     
  11. kula (Memes enclosed) within Registered Senior Member

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    Hi Hideki,

    I did read your post first and you explained your definition of ego very well. As i said, i dont know how far i can push this parallel hence the 'loose' questions. I apologise if they were not thought out sufficiently.

    Ego seems to be used to describe various concepts and ive noticed that various systems describe similar goals and methods of attaining those goals. The goal could be desribed as total awareness and the various systems also desribe certain choices we can make in respect to our thinking and actions. Using astral planing as an example, the experience desribed by those practicing it is total awareness even though they are experiencing it from an individual perspective. They have already begun to remove thoughts and actions that would otherwise prevent this experience but 'total awareness' could also suggest more than an individual perspective.

    I am suggesting that any concept of 'enlightenment' or 'total awareness' is limited to the perspective of an observer who is conscious of their own individuality and that individuality is further influenced by concepts of 'enlightenment' and 'total awareness'.

    Interesting thought about animals attaining enlightenment, do they have more or less ego's and are instincts a hinderence to enlightenment ?
     
  12. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    ((spidergoat)))had justyped you a lengthy reponse.....my server cuts me off every 20mins and i lost the fukin lot! now i aint a Buddhist who isn't phased. but i was as cool as you like...hehe. anyway this will have to be a minimalist version. maybe it will get more to the bones of what i means who knows

    you say you believe in mental illness? this verifies what i feel about Buddhism per se. i see its means as a form of 'prozak'. for example. you sit in meditation, very still. and you try and negate emotions, so as to get too......

    then as (Hideki)) says, if someone insults you you aren't phased and say good day or whatever...?isn't this attitude--in its dispassionate way--similar to the effects of anti-depressants. in that they atorphy realy emotion. you know that bubbling chaos that wants to rip things apart?

    you say that emotional potential is dangerous. i say that the suppressing of emotion is dangerous. thus we are at odds?

    There is no evidence whatsoever that there exists a condition called biological mental illness. This myth is commensurate with the medieval theocratic myth of 'witchcraft'...........a particularly horrible example of the present myth is the up to 7,000,000 children on Ritalin in schools. so as to fit them into an oppressive system they are diagnosed having the 'mental illness' 'ADHD'. parents are qeuing up to put thier kids on it!

    UNTIL there Is scientific evidence that there is such a thing as "mental illness" which our culture sees as the breakdown of the 'biochemcial machine' which is what we all are supposed to be in this materialistic paradgim, then they have no right to coercively have people take their so-called medication, which can be very harmful to the bodymind!
    This is a VAST massive subject, and really desrves a thread of its own

    Now, about where you said...
    OK, it's true, there is no separate self to transcend, however many do have the idea of self which can cause suffering. Transcending this self means to recognize it for what it is..."

    which is a double-bind. which excacerbates the already exploited. what do i mean?

    patterns. it is the myths/stories that cause this belief in a separated self. a 'bad' me and a 'good' me (which i outlined meticulously inthe lost post)
    LISTEN......this device is well known...well known to all oppressive systems. it is called "Divide and Control/Rule"...first you suggest the your victim that they aren't 'right'...that they have 'roginal sin' are 'trapped in nature'...etc. THEN you offer A solution. you've got em!....what you've doen is made that person feel un-balanced....that she cant trust herself. there is something 'not-right'. you, the ones who perpetrate this--MAy think you are doing good. but you are not. you are treating people like your puppets. and of course you too might be under that belief too
     
  13. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    The concept of buddhism is symbolic, but the results are not, since the results are not symbolic in nature. Buddhism is the use of concepts to go beyond concepts. It is not the complete obliteration of concepts, since those are what we use to communicate but the essence of Buddhism cannot be communicated.

    Sure, but all kinds of strange phenomenon can appear when meditating, some of which are also delusions, like going to another plane of existence.

    Duendy, I have to believe in mental illness, i have seen it destroy the dreams and potential of a creative and talented person, reducing him to a babbling idiot before my own eyes. If he were able to live a rewarding life this way, I wouldn't care about the strange ideas and disconnect with reality, but he can't.

    There is the sickness of thinking you are not sick. Also, you don't try to negate emotions, this is a misconception about meditiation.

    It's not an attitude, it's the realization that insults often reveal the speaker's faults more than the receiver. Who is there to offend? The person of virtue is passionate like an animal, they don't hold on to the emotion after it's past, if the critisism is valid, they accept it. It's just that many emotions are based on false premises, remove the premise of an ego to offend, and most causes for offense disappear. Then again, some Buddhists are not above delivering a whack on the head with their stick when it's called for. The bubbling chaos is what we are delivered from when awakened.

    Both are equally dangerous, what is suppressed pops up somewhere else with greater intensity and disfunction. Awakening is neither indulgence nor suppression.

    I believe there are MRI scans of mentally ill people that show differences in the density of certain area of the brain. Some experienced doctors can distinguish a mentally ill person just by their smell. And if it weren't biological, then anti-psychotic medication would not work. Certainly the medications currently available have side effects and may not be totally healthy, but that's not to say that psychosis should always be left untreated.

    There is no proselytizing in Buddhism, people come to it because they are searching for a remedy for the dissatisfaction that they already feel. If you don't feel a dissatisfaction, there is no need for it. I don't think Buddhism does people "good" in the conventional sense, actually it can cause confusion initially, since so much about it is counterintuitive, and I'm talking mostly about Zen. Many techniques are deliberately designed to create confusion, to make you question what you think you know, because the ego is in there real tight. In order to be given everything, you must give everything up. You can do this yourself.

    sorry you lost your longer post, I hate when that happens!


    I think it's human culture and symbolic language that creates the need for liberation. Animals were never saddled with this trait, so they are naturally enlightened, meaning they are just themselves. They could not attain what they already are.
     
  14. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    hahah! it has just happened again....lost a good effort of text tto you spdegoat. just shows you how the sense of time t
    ricks you....so yet again i will have to minimlaize it so as to keep from throwing my keyboard thru the fukin window

    ok......think on this. we are living under a paradigm. in the Western world, the previous paradigm was the theocracy. this was where everything was dictated to by the dogma of the church. if you went against this paradigm you were condemned as 'sinner' 'heretic' 'witch' 'damned' and destined for hell. all of this was man-made social control. the paradgim was so all pervasive that people did not know it was there!!!...yes? and all their functions were determined by that belief system--for the ones who believed in it that is. EVEN many heretics rebelled within the perimetres of the rejected belief, ie, reacting against a blief that wasn't questioned...

    now we are in the 'pharmacratic paradigm. now 'God' 'devil' 'spirit' have supposedly been doen away with. we now live in the scientific age of reason. this paradigm is materialistic. we are seen to be merely biochemical machines. and when not working, producing, buying products, fighting in their armies...if we 'breakdown' we are dagnosed by the new preists--the psychiatrists as being mentally ill

    as i explained in my lost post. it was recently reported that so many people are now on anti-depressants, that the inevitable waste from people is seriously polluting the water systems!

    Now, from your- and other buddhits i have conversed with-repnses, you seem to suggest that the answer to our problems is reading buddhist literature and meditating. but from what i have heard from same i am not conivinced you are seeing through the show. so why should i accept your criteria for 'awakening' when your views seem so archaic?

    you are locked into a belief system that has rigidified. and what we NEEd is flexibility. you dont want DELIVERING from the bubbling chaos we want to dive into it...For it is being seen that FROM chaos can come bifurcations of new creative ways of seeing
    if meditating was really about exploring..in FREEDOM. fine, i wouldn't challenge, i'd agree. that's what i like, exploring in freedom. but to get hit by a stick, or the want to get too an abstract idea like 'awakening'.....no. i am too gregarious for such a stilted enterprise. also you must understand that when you cling to a psychlogical goal. you simultaneously get cught in time. the time it takes to get from a('unawakened state' to b( 'awakened state ....meanwhile time is passing you by
     
  15. kula (Memes enclosed) within Registered Senior Member

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    I'm still trying to think of a reply spidergoat, but you explained your experience of buddhism very well, thanks.

    I appreciate that this may be very premature, but from what i have seen and heard of buddhist.....doctrine, many statements have been made on the nature of that experience that we are only just making now, using our best scientific endevours (i'm thinking particularly about quantum physics, observing potential, form coming from non-form etc).

    I suppose any result we get from any endevour will depend on the patterns of thought we have choosen to build into our brains. Some patterns will allow more flexibility than others.
     
  16. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    I suggest the answer to our problems lies with the individual. I'm not a Buddhist. Our modern consumption of anti-depressants is perhaps nothing new. The drugs have changed, but the tendency to seek intoxication or religious ecstasy in this way is ancient. Buddhism took root in many cultures that previously were shamanistic, and thus it must have offered a genuine and satisfying alternative to such a paradigm. I think there are things to be learned from both. I would like to quote Terence McKenna on the subject of cultural paradigms:
    You might think you are criticising Buddhism, when actually you are correctly pointing out it's central paradox. Our desires bind us to a world of suffering. The more we desire, the more we suffer. But our desire to escape from this world of suffering is also a desire that must be overcome before we truly can escape.

     
  17. te jen Registered Senior Member

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    There is indeed a Buddhist scripture that grew up around Siddhartha's teachings. I am not interested in them - the four noble truths and the eightfold path are all I find necessary to live a mindful life. For me, less is always more....

    I learn more towards Taoism, though, as an expression of the basic ideas that illuminate the sickness of our world. It tends towards a more nature-based experience, which appeals to me.

    I wouldn't identify myself publicly as either, though. I think that the moment you paste a label on yourself that you immediately separate yourself from other people, which is almost always a bad idea.

    That's what I really like about online forums - you don't know if I am a woman, man, black, white....I could be an eight-year old prodigy or a fifty-year old redneck. You aren't blinded by externals - all you get are thoughts.
     
  18. robtex Registered Senior Member

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    kr8m3r_78 never came back. Only one post. I wonder if trying to discredit other religions was a way to validate his own?
     
  19. weredperson Registered Member

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    well, it seems like this thread has been inactive for quite awile, but thought i would ask here anyway, i dont know all that much about buddism but out of all the religions/system of belifes, it is most similer to what i came up with before i started looking at diffrent religions but, i was wondering, if we were orginal souls/ soulconsciousness, how did we end up in human bodys being reincarnated? (not trying to question anyones beilifes, this even questons my own) but has anyone ever considerd that we choose to end up in human bodys being rencarnated? that maby there was a reason behind it? i mean it seems a little strange to have been at a point of enlighenment so to speak and then end up like this trying to reconnect with that greater understanding. does that make sence at all?
     
  20. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Buddhism says reincarnation is not chosen, and it's a bad thing.

    I think life's reason for living is to live. Because it can.
     
  21. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.


    Just as treasures are uncovered from the earth, so virtue appears from good deeds, and wisdom appears from a pure and peaceful mind. To walk safely through the maze of human life, one needs the light of wisdom and the guidance of virtue.


    The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed.


    Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others.

    Buddha
     
  22. NietzscheHimself Banned Banned

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    Why do you believe reincarnation is a bad thing?
     
  23. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Buddhism does...and it's because you're attaching to delusion when you are reincarnated, of course.

    I incorporate Buddhism, but I'm not a pure anything. I do like the idea of having ten thousand lifetimes to get everything right.

    Considering my rate of success, that's probably how long it will take...
     

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