Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by seekeroftheway, Mar 14, 2006.
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I was not the attending physician so I cannot give anything near a diagnosis of that event other than to remark that - if the comment attributed to the doctor is accurate - than he had no idea what he was talking about.
The news stories, seriously flawed studies and the like that have been surfacing loudly and with great media fanfare in recent years are obvious conservative political ploys with the stated goal of re - criminalizing cannabis in several countries.
Understand this: When a person ingests cannabis, cannabinoids the active ingredients, engage what we call CB 1 and CB 2 receptors in your central nervous system scattered throughout your entire body. Specifically, Delta - 9 tetrahydrocannabinol engages the CB 1 receptors and gets the user "stoned" and Cannabidiol (CBD) engages CB 2 receptors, some of which moderate pain perception and prevent 'pain resonance' in the paraquaductal gray area of your brain. If you are feeling nauseous, engaging the CB 2 receptors will stop that. (this is a simplified and abbreviated explanation of a very complex neurochemical interaction)
Once those receptors are all engaged with the cannabinoids, there is no further effect from ingesting more cannabis. 'Street cannabis' has indeed become more potent in the last 40 years, but one must bear in mind that the starting point was close to zero - some cannabis back then was male plants, leaf material ("schwag") and/or unripe cannabis that had very little active ingredient so merely getting smarter about what to market made for major improvement in quality.
The "skunk" strain (an Afghan kush bred by Sam the Skunkman in California about 20 years ago) that is touted as being so very strong isn't so much, it just smells like a skunk. In Canada, "Sativex" throat spray is sold by prescription for various ailments. It is almost 100% pure active ingredients. Hashish is typically 40% - 60% pure active ingredients (the strongest 'street pot' around today is about 24%) and has been available in the West since the early 1800's. Remember Coleridge (he wrote Xanadu) and "the Hashish Eaters" artists group? Further, those 'exceptionally potent strains' were readily available to a lot of folks, not just to Bruce Lee (if he had wanted them). "Honey Oil", about 80% pure active ingredients has been available since the late 1960's and is even more available now.
Again, Mr Lee's ethics and lifestyle choice revolved around the martial arts aspects of Shaolin Buddhism. He did not smoke anything because that would interfere with his training, as would eating or drinking large amounts of cannabis. The traditions of Wing Chung and the teachings of Yip Man ran contrary to that as well. His life philosophy is crystal clear, well published and verified by his many training associates and students.
Occam's Razor (parsimony) dictates that there is no need to make up fairy stories to explain a tragedy that already has a solid explanation. These days, it is easier to make a rapid diagnosis of a sudden, unexpected death - witness the passing of those 2 teen athletes in the last week from enlarged heart failure.
OK, Stoniphi, thank you for your explanation.
Are you implying that you think that Bruce Lee did not consume cannabis period, or just that he didn't smoke it? I was quite surprised when I first read that Bruce had used cannabis - for the reasons you've already mentioned - his well documented ethics and lifestyle choice. However, I was under the impression that the presence of cannabis was officially documented by the autopsy.
I cannot say whether Mr Lee consumed cannabis or not. I can say that he most likely didn't smoke it if he did consume it due to the above, and that if he used it in tea or the like it would have been in moderation.
Advancement in martial arts revolves around control. Those who pursue extreme MA workouts, advanced techniques and extreme performance cannot allow anything to interfere with that training. Massive doses of cannabis would do that, minimal doses would not.
"Couchlock" does not work well with a 2 hour heavy bag workout or a 10 mile run.
There are many medicinal cannabis consumers who take dosage enough to deal with their issue (usually pain of some kind), but not enough to get "stoned". I am not familiar enough with his official autopsy to state anything about those findings, but would suggest that if cannabis was indeed present than it could well have been for therapeutic reason. The venerable herb has been used as such in Eastern medicine for at least 6,500 years. This was proven by a bowl of cannabis buds entombed with a mummified Chinese shaman along with his trepanning and bleeding tools.
The Deadliest Man on the Planet
Professor Albert Goldman did a great job in getting the correct facts in his 1982 article, entitled "The Deadliest Man on the Planet" for Penthouse. Excerpts:
Lee whipped out a copy of the September 1972 edition of Playboy, which contained a clutch of articles entitled "The Drug Explosion." Actually, there was nothing in any of the pieces that would want to make a man turn on, but the chart prepared by the editorial staff characterized cannabis as providing "relaxation, breakdown of inhibitions ... euphoria, increased appetite" -- all things that were appealing to the anxious, irritable, and underweight Bruce Lee. Most important was the fact that no distinction was drawn between marijuana and hashish: both were lumped together indifferently beside the rubric "cannabis."
This was a serious omission. Although grass and hashish are prepared from the hemp plant, they are for all practical purposes no more the same than are wine and whiskey. Especially, when eaten by high-strung types like Bruce Lee, hashish is apt to prove a nightmare drug. If it doesn't drive you crazy, it may poison you. Those little "temple balls," "fingers," and other little goodies from Nepal may be contaminated by having been manufactured in one of the most primitive and unhygienic environments on earth. If you don't burn the stuff, you're asking for trouble. Naturally, Bruce Lee, who was not basically a drug addict, knew nothing of these dangers. Yet, being a classic know-it-all, he claimed to be an expert on the drug.
In 1970, for example, a young athlete died at Antwerp in a room where he has been smoking hashish. The highly respected pathologist, Dr. Aubin Heyndrickx, who conducted the autopsy, made an exhaustive effort to determine or not hashish had been the cause of death. Eventually, through a great number of multiplication of the usual number of tests, he was able to rule out every other imaginable cause, leaving hashish as the presumptive cause. A year later, a French soldier tried to commit suicide by smoking a large quantity of hashish mixed with tobacco. He went into a coma for four days, but his life was saved. When he recovered, he claimed that other people had killed themselves in the same manner. Chances are that he would have died as well if there had been no medical intervention.
The strongest evidence I collected for death by hashish poisoning was provided by Dr. Francis Mas, a psycho-pharmacologist on the faculty of the Albert Einstein Medical College in New York. Dr. Mas served his internship at Casablanca in 1966. He was attached to the emergency room and intensive-care unit of Averroes Hospital. It was not uncommon on a Saturday night for a patient to be brought in suffering from overindulgence in hashish. Generally, these people recovered after a night's sleep.
Once in awhile, such a case would exhibit precisely the symptoms observed in Bruce Lee, including coma, brain edema and respiratory collapse. Before the doctors could reverse the process, the patient would die. Dr. Mas observed one such case personally and was told about another. The only cause for these fatal seizures that the medical staff could discover was that the victims had consumed hashish that was either very fresh or had been prepared in a manner that increased its potency.
That Bruce Lee was consuming hashish of exceptionally high potency is quite probable in view of the drug's provenance. Nepalese hash is the most powerful in the world because it is produced by a unique process. Instead of sieving out the tops of the plants, as is done in Morocco, Lebanon, and Afghanistan -- a technique that allows the product to become adulterated with inactive vegetable matter -- the Nepalese will till the sun makes the leaves of their towering plants sweat pure resin. Then they rub off this resin with their bare hands and compress it in screw presses. The resulting product is a pure concentrate of the 400 ingredients that comprise hashish. If the customer can command the best, the so-called Royal Hashish, he will obtain a drug that is often productive of violent effects, including numerous neurological symptoms. Laurence Cherniak, the only foreigner ever to study and photograph the production of Royal Hashish at close-hand, describes the effects of this preparation in 'The Great Book of Hashish, Volume I,' as "so potent it was almost lethal."
What you have posted here would put me in stitches if this wasn't a science site. It is, however, and I must once again call "bullshit" on you for continuing this tirade of insult and pseudo-science.
If you have any real, solid, verifiable proof at all that cannabis has killed even 1 single person ever in the entirety of recorded human history, post it up here now. If you do not, than you should quit making that false claim.
"The constituents of marijuana lists 66 cannabinoids" in cannabis, so that is as many as will be in hashish. "except for the harms associated with smoking, the adverse effects of marijuana use are within the range of effects tolerated for other medications" This from The National Academy of Science School of Medicine report to the US Federal Government on Marijuana and Medicine, Assessing the Science Base, National Academy Press, Washington DC, 2001. I have some other serious sources as well, if you wish to put up some more comic book trash 'factoids' for rebuttal.
What you are posting up here reads much like 1930's Anslinger propaganda and is so far off base as to be tragic in its error. Again I have to ask you what your' motivation is here. Is it your desire to make yourself feel better by besmirching the name of a fallen hero? Do you have some kind of anti - cannabis agenda to push? Are you a child and a bit lacking in education yet?
Or are you just trolling the thread hoping to hook a live one? :shrug:
I don't know who you are, but you sound like an arrogant narrow-minded American pompus ass. Probably a drug user, since you defend it so passionately. Or a staunch Democrat. I have nothing against cannabis. I used it myself, along with hashish in my teens. Yeah, for a young martial artist and street fighter, I did my share of partying until I quit.
Those Washington studies are full of crap because they're all based on the initial ones they did back in the 60's. Look, Mister, this is not Africa or Asia. It's the USA, which is so isolated from the rest of the world. You are no judge and jury, just some fanatic, so don't get too much of an inflated head. As for Lee, he got his karma in the end. Had he been wise, he would have listened to his doctors. That's what happens when you think you are invincible. By the way, Albert Goldman spoke to both Langford and Wu and knew a good amount of doctors. His work was credible. Yours isn't.
Bruce Lee is not dead. He became like water and took a trip down the canal to see the submarine races.
Again, if you cannot back up your false statements and slander you lack any credibility at all on this or any other topic of worth.
You figure some silly 1985 magazine article is more credible than the National Academy of Science?
You appear to know very little about cannabis, much less about Bruce Lee and the martial arts and nothing at all about how to participate in a civil adult conversation.
My guess is that you are one of the children who like to pop in and strut their stuff here to try and impress the grown - ups.
Bruce Lee: Really dead?
I seen a made for tv movie once, long ago, about a college athlete. He was a runner. He would go on these high protein, zero carb. diets to shed his body fat. Do to the fatigue factor that sets in, he was also taking upper's, diet pills to boost his energy. He later died from cerebral edema, swelling of the brain, from the combination of the diet and pills.
It made me think of Bruce. No human being under normal circumstances can reach the level of fitness and endure the stress of long hours of training, choreographing fight scenes and all the things Bruce did with out a little boost from something. As much as I admire and respect Bruce Lee and appreciate his talent, I can't help but wonder.
Keep in mind he was good friends with James Coburn the actor, who was a heavy cocain user. Guilt by association? Maybe!
I prefer to think Bruce would never use drugs. But I can't help but wonder.
RIP Bruce! Miss you!
He better be. Bruce owes me $50 bucks. and if I see his geriatric ass, I'm kicking it!
Well there's the essence of it in your own words- the guy was a human being. A very fine physical and philosophical specimen at that, IMO, but human all the same. Nobody's perfect, but I guess cultural mystique surrounds folks like Bruce Lee and leads others to place them on imaginary pedestals.
I've heard stories about him before and checked on Wikipedia just now- apparently, the doctors determined that he died from an overdose of painkillers. The OP says he/she finds this suggestion offensive, but I don't see why it should be so. To me it would just show I have that much more in common with Bruce Lee (i.e. I have flaws), thus I could better relate to and draw inspiration from his struggles and accomplishments.
Ingesting Marijuana and Resin is much safer than smoking it. Not one person has ever died from a Marijuana over dose. If so I would like for you guys to cite some statistics if not than I ask you to stop perpetuating psuedo-science. It's allready an established fact that Bruce Lee did not die off Marijuana, it's just as credible as the conspiracy theory stating the goverment killed Bruce Lee for there own reasons.
I eat marijuana and resin all the time, when I can't smoke, it sucks, it doesent even get you as high, eating weed and resin you have to eat alot, even than it wouldent "Kill you". infact I read a study not too long ago illustrating statistics that show that more people have died eating bad meat than medical cases relating to Marijuana. So the average person wouldent have died but Brucee Lee the epitomee of health basically would??
I call bullshit on that!
I've been reading this all night NOW I need to say something!!!
Wow, I am impressed at the passion concerning Mr Bruce Lee, Lee Jun Fan, Lee Siu Long, very intense! Allow me to nit pick one thing, mikenostic I don't know you at all, what I do know is that you don't know anything about THE DOORS, or Jim Morrison!!! Check yourself before you quote someone, BECAUSE rock and roll will never die, was in fact Neil Young!!! So now I really wonder what you really know or don't know about Bruce Lee!! Sorry I'm just a stickler about the TRUTH! Bruce Lee had severely damaged the 4th Sacral nerve, which meant he was in constant pain! According to the Orthapedic Surgeon for the NY YANKEES AND THE NY KNICKS, COCAINE USE WOULD HAVE MADE HIM HURT WORSE!! And yes he did use cannibis! Along with a Steroid!! He was amazingly charismatic, and yes he was an incredible martial artist!! But he was also HUMAN, there really wasn't much that could be done back then, it was a combination that just enraged him the more it didn't help him!! It wasn't Coke, it was steroids, and pain killers!!! Now I know everyone thinks they "know" what it was but you were only half right!!!
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread. Has anyone suggested he was perhaps murdered by enemies in the martial arts world? I know a lot of Chinese martial arts experts disliked his "abandonment of the rules", shall we say, in that he formed his own martial arts style based on multiple other styles.
Got no evidence for this, just thought I'd throw it out there.
Just wanted to add my 2cents toward the Nepalese temple ball theory, as most forms of hash are used by natives for varied uses, but mainly therapeutically and given the multiple severe injuries it would be obvious that he chose "the natural" pain relief medicine rather than a man made chemical and given his beliefs smoking was a no no but oral consumption would have been OK, as since 2727 b.c. it is noted, the Chinese have been using Marijuana and its by products, one of the by products being medicine. I was thinking,if there is any truth behind the theory, maybe as he was using resin that was not available to others would there have been opium in the temple ball, not enough to be noticed by the coroner? As all old school Afghan hash contained it, as did original Thai stick.
I know that proper temple balls are made by only hand rolling the buds in the afternoon, so that the morning dew had vaporized, making it a purer resin that contains no moisture, but maybe he was given something special with opium being used as a binder, but only a small amount, but this is only based on the the information, being that the hash had something to do with his death, Which in my opinion is utter donkey nuts
I do personally believe it was sudden death syndrome, which the older Chinese would have called "a curse" having said that it wouldn't explain of Brandon getting killed by a blank.
The Hmong people from Laos believe sudden death syndrome is a jealous witch who sits on your face causing suffocation?
Whatever happened the legend lives on!!!
Sorry to weigh in late on this, but I felt compelled to post.
Rick667, you can't possibly have parts of the autopsy reports, nor the full toxicology reports. And I'll tell you the reason why.
Dr.R.R.Lycette was my cousin, born in England and emigrated to New Zealand, it is only recently I found out he were the person responsible for conducting Bruce Lee's autopsy, it was never spoken about, not even as a 'claim to fame' between families over the years, he was a very professional and private man, if that is what his findings concluded then I personally believe them to be true (Although the findings you seem to have on paper, seem to be the completely wrong findings regarding cannabis intoxication, I know at least this much.)
There was and never has been any cover up. It's such a shame many wish to continue to rubbish a professionals findings. I can honestly state hand on heart, there would not have been anything that was overlooked during his examination of Bruce Lee, Dr.R.R Lycette was a very thorough, professional man.
Sadly Dr.R.R Lycette passed away last year, last meetings my family had with him were in Hong Kong in the 80's, letters were frequently exchanged and as a family we maintained contact right up until after my fathers death in 2007.
So from the very begining there is questions.
Same thing with Elvis...
Here is the cause...
Everyone who really dead - not dead, they hid
The cannabinoids in cannabis are very similar to the endocannabinoids that our bodies make, that is why they interact with our systems as they do. If you are "allergic" to the active ingredients in marijuana then you are also "allergic" to the same chemicals when they are made by your own body. If that is the case then you are so very physically messed - up that you are not able to be here to talk to us...or to do anything else. In that case you have my utmost sympathy and my hope that your untimely end comes soon and ends your pain. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Again, in more than 12,500 years there has not been 1 single death attributable to the use of cannabis by a human being. Bruce Lee did not die from using marijuana. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs." If you put up the claim you gotta put up the proof as well or your claim is hooey.
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