Book of Mormon: true or false?

I feel that current studies of DNA, linguistics, etc. will disprove the Mormon theory that Native Americans are descendant from the 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel'. I do not believe this theory, because except for the Vikings, there's no real evidence that any other culture had an impact on any Native American tribe, until Columbus. No stories, no place names, no family names, no words or languages, no foods, no writing, no art, no animals, no technology, no resistance to diseases, no genetic trace.
Any tribe exposed to advanced cultures, usually takes up aspects of it. Look at what happened in New Guinea and Polynesia. Recently in southern Africa they were able to prove that the Lemba are Jewish descendents. Using gene studies of the Y chromosome, they followed the priestly Aaronic-line of males (cohen = priest). And the genes matched Jews from Israel and the Diaspora. The Lemba also had stories that they were Jewish, had Kosher-type laws and other customs. Yet they were as black as any other African, in other words they looked native! If the stories in the Book of Mormon are to be believed, this would also be true of Native Americans, if they were Jewish as the Mormons claim, you could trace their genetic makeup, customs and stories. It should be provable.

My point is, since it seems that most Indians are majority 'B' blood type and belong to A, B, C, & D halogroups; it would be simple to correlate the blood types and halogroups that the majority of Asiatic, Israeli & Diaspora Jews belongs to. If anyone has that data, they could prove the Mormon theory one way or another.

Another point is, that any one coming over to the Western Hemisphere with iron, steel or shipbuilding technology would have made a huge impact on stone-age people. Which, except for precious metals and some copper and tin, there's no evidence that any tribe was other that stone age. Anybody with metal swords would have become kings or great warriors of myth, under any of the warrior cultures, (which the Mayans, Aztecs, & Incas were). These swords would have been treasured and handed down for generations, sort of like the Arthurian legend of England. There should be words in common, for those tribes that came in contact with Europeans or Asians. When white, black or yellow peoples first showed up here in the Western Hemisphere, they should have been called mythological names that could be traced to their homelands, (like 'Israelotl', 'Neftiotl', or 'Moronotl', etc, not Quetzalcoatl = Feathered Serpent). They should also have had elephants, horses, etc. in their art or if they were kosher in their art also, at least Stars of David, pomegranates, olive branches or other popular Israelite motifs.
They should have common writing, which except for a few Mesoamerican tribes (the Olmec & Mayan glyphs and Aztec picture drawing), there is no evidence that that any Native American tribe used writing. There has to be some tangible evidence.

Mormons, that claim that the Native American Indians are descendant from the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel", say that all the ancient monuments and cities are the result of an ancient war by these 'Lost Tribes', which left them without any knowledge of their past, and because of their evil, turned them into dark-skinned people!!??
I do not agree with this belief, and as a Mexican (mixed Indian & Spanish blood), I find it culturally imperialistic to think that Native peoples needed any outside help to develop these ancient sites. I also think, that any reference to "Lost Tribes" is in error, since I think that any descendents of the Assyrian Captivity stayed on in the remnants of that empire, lived as Jews there (so they were not ‘lost’), up until the founding of the modern State of Israel, when they immigrated to Israel from present-day Syria, Iraq & Iran (the borders of the old Assyrian Empire).

As an example, I would like to point out this: look at the Mexican people, a mixture of Spanish & Indian blood. The Spanish dialect spoken by Mexicans, has Aztec & other Indian words in it. Mexican food, has Spanish & native foods mixed together. Mexican art & architecture, are a mixture of European & Indian styles. Why? Because there was definite, provable historical contact.

Anyway, there is usually proof left, the Vikings left long houses, bones and stories.
All the other claimants didn't leave a thing. Why would people believe that others had influenced the Native American tribes (like Africans, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Chinese, Atlanteans, etc.)? Probably because it was wishful thinking or speculation on the part of the early European settlers & present-day mythmakers. Maybe because they wanted to see people like themselves here, so that they would feel they belonged here (entitled to the land & therefore not stealing it) or because they could not believe that 'savages' could ever build civilizations like the Mayas or Incas?

By the way, here are some links that may be of interest to you:

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/
On the ‘Lost Tribes of Israel’
Original broadcast date: 02/22/2000

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/
On ‘Kennewick Man’
Original broadcast date: 02/15/2000

http://www.chattanooga.net/cita/mtdna.html
On ‘Geneticist's Work On DNA’
excerpts from the ‘Wall Street Journal’, 10 September 1993 p 1, col. 1

http://www.nmnh.si.edu/anthro/outreach/indian_l.htm
On ‘Pre-columbian Native American writing’

http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmnh/origin.htm
On ‘Paleoamerican Origins’

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/bom/manuscripts_eom.htm
On ‘Book of Mormon manuscripts’

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/programs/2202_vikings.html
On 'Vikings in America'
Original broadcast: January 24, 1995

If any of this interests you, you have any contrary or correlating data, or you can respond in any way with ideas, arguments, etc., please do!!!

 

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Mormon scholar predicts his expulsion

By Patty Henetz
The Associated Press

SALT LAKE CITY — An Edmonds Community College instructor with
Mormon family roots says he will probably be excommunicated next
week for articles he has written questioning the validity of the Book
of Mormon.

Thomas W. Murphy, 35, published an article in the May Signature
Books anthology "American Apocrypha," which uses genetic data
to discredit the Book of Mormon claim that American Indians are
heathen descendants of ancient Israel. The conclusion also is the
thesis of his doctoral dissertation at the University of Washington.

"We're told to tell the truth, but not if the truth contradicts church
doctrine. I would prefer to tell the truth," Murphy said.

[story continued here]

 

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The BoM:it's true it was written, but it's false in what it implies. it also is heavily plagarized..


btw...that was a great post, Randolpho; very well organized and thoughtfully executed. (hee hee...i shoulda been an English teacher...)

 

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What is it about anyway?? It's just kind of like, "Oh, we forgot to put chapter in the Bible."

 

Re: Mormon scholar predicts his expulsion

As far as these so-called lost tribes (the Lamanites and Nephites, the Jaredites) being the ancestors of the Native Peoples,
I feel that the particular claim that the Mormon BoM makes, needs to be challenged for three valid reasons:
1) They were stealing the history from Native Peoples (of which I belong as a Mexican),
2) Those claims go against most established sciences (linguists, genetics, biology, archeology and anthropology) &
3) They have several organizations trying to prove those claims, such as FARMS at Brigham Young University, http://www.farms.byu.edu/ .

In the past I have had dealings with this issue and being intensely interested in Mesoamerican history, I usually speak up about it. While at Bakersfield College in the early 1980’s, I had taken all the archeology & anthropology classes there, including 3 semesters of field work at Rocky Hill near Porterville by the Sierras (at a Tübatulabal camp site, tribal area listed on map provided as ‘21h’ http://www.californiaprehistory.com/tribmap.html ).

While at one of those digs, I noticed that one of the students had a real cool t-shirt with a Mayan glyph & the words “it shall come to past” underneath. I asked him where he had gotten that & why did it say that? Well he responded that that was the translation of the glyph; I disputed that because I knew at that time they had not gone far beyond the numbering system and told him that. Anyway, I saw him about half an hour later with a different t-shirt. I continually run up against people that believe BoM claims and so feel the need to correct them.

So anyway, I hope that you understand why it may be more personal to me, than just a religion thing. Also, there seems to be more research going on by Mormons that is unbiased (in my opinion), but is being met with denial by the Mormon church, http://www.fresnobee.com/24hour/nation/story/667179p-4988084c.html

 

Yup! I totally understand.

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Abstracts from "Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics" [1]
by Thomas W. Murphy on link below:

http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp

Abstracts from 4 different studies:

1.
Am J Hum Genet 2002 Jan;70(1):192-206

The dual origin and Siberian affinities of Native American Y chromosomes.

Lell JT, Sukernik RI, Starikovskaya YB, Su B, Jin L, Schurr TG, Underhill PA, Wallace DC.

Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA 30322, USA.

The Y chromosomes of 549 individuals from Siberia and the Americas were analyzed for 12 biallelic markers, which defined 15 haplogroups. The addition of four microsatellite markers increased the number of haplotypes to 111. The major Native American founding lineage, haplogroup M3, accounted for 66% of male Y chromosomes and was defined by the biallelic markers M89, M9, M45, and M3. The founder haplotype also harbored the microsatellite alleles DYS19 (10 repeats), DYS388 (11 repeats), DYS390 (11 repeats), and DYS391 (10 repeats). In Siberia, the M3 haplogroup was confined to the Chukotka peninsula, adjacent to Alaska. The second major group of Native American Y chromosomes, haplogroup M45, accounted for about one-quarter of male lineages. M45 was subdivided by the biallelic marker M173 and by the four microsatellite loci alleles into two major subdivisions: M45a, which is found throughout the Americas, and M45b, which incorporates the M173 variant and is concentrated in North and Central America. In Siberia, M45a haplotypes, including the direct ancestor of haplogroup M3, are concentrated in Middle Siberia, whereas M45b haplotypes are found in the Lower Amur River and Sea of Okhotsk regions of eastern Siberia. Among the remaining 5% of Native American Y chromosomes is haplogroup RPS4Y-T, found in North America. In Siberia, this haplogroup, along with haplogroup M45b, is concentrated in the Lower Amur River/Sea of Okhotsk region. These data suggest that Native American male lineages were derived from two major Siberian migrations. The first migration originated in southern Middle Siberia with the founding haplotype M45a (10-11-11-10). In Beringia, this gave rise to the predominant Native American lineage, M3 (10-11-11-10), which crossed into the New World. A later migration came from the Lower Amur/Sea of Okhkotsk region, bringing haplogroup RPS4Y-T and subhaplogroup M45b, with its associated M173 variant. This migration event contributed to the modern genetic pool of the Na-Dene and Amerinds of North and Central America.

==
2.
Am J Hum Genet 2002 Jul;71(1):187-192

Mitochondrial genome diversity of Native Americans supports a single early entry of founder populations into America.

Silva WA Jr, Bonatto SL, Holanda AJ, Ribeiro-Dos-Santos AK, Paixao BM, Goldman GH, Abe-Sandes K, Rodriguez-Delfin L, Barbosa M, Paco-Larson ML, Petzl-Erler ML, Valente V, Santos SE, Zago MA.

Center for Cell Therapy and Regional Blood Center, University of Sao Paulo, Ribeirao Preto, Brazil.

There is general agreement that the Native American founder populations migrated from Asia into America through Beringia sometime during the Pleistocene, but the hypotheses concerning the ages and the number of these migrations and the size of the ancestral populations are surrounded by controversy. DNA sequence variations of several regions of the genome of Native Americans, especially in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region, have been studied as a tool to help answer these questions. However, the small number of nucleotides studied and the nonclocklike rate of mtDNA control-region evolution impose several limitations to these results. Here we provide the sequence analysis of a continuous region of 8.8 kb of the mtDNA outside the D-loop for 40 individuals, 30 of whom are Native Americans whose mtDNA belongs to the four founder haplogroups. Haplogroups A, B, and C form monophyletic clades, but the five haplogroup D sequences have unstable positions and usually do not group together. The high degree of similarity in the nucleotide diversity and time of differentiation (i.e., approximately 21,000 years before present) of these four haplogroups support a common origin for these sequences and suggest that the populations who harbor them may also have a common history. Additional evidence supports the idea that this age of differentiation coincides with the process of colonization of the New World and supports the hypothesis of a single and early entry of the ancestral Asian population into the Americas.

===
3.
Am J Phys Anthropol 1978 Nov;49(4):457-464

Ethnic communities in Israel: the genetic blood markers of the Babylonian Jews.

Bonne-Tamir B, Ashbel S, Bar-Shani S.

One hundred eighty-eight Jewish individuals who either they or whose both parents were born in Iraq were typed for 7 blood groups (ABO, MNS, Rh, Kell, Duffy, P and Kidd), 12 red cell enzyme systems and 2 serum proteins. Iraqi Jews are characterized by a high frequency of A (in ABO), N (in MNS), low cde (Rh) and low Hp-1. Several rare electrophoretic variants were encountered: PGM1 6-1, PHI 3-1 and PHI 2-1, and an unidentified AK phenotype. No evidence of Negroid admixture was found in their gene pool. Comparisons with results previously obtained in Iraqi Jews show general similarities in frequencies while comparisons with neighboring non-Jewish populations suggest divergence in most systems investigated. The difficulties of assessing relationships on the basis of a few selected differences and the need for careful interpretations of similarities are emphasized.

===

4.
Am J Phys Anthropol 1977 Jul;47(1):89-91

ABO-typing of ancient skeletons from Israel.

Micle S, Kobilyansky E, Nathan M, Arensburg B, Nathan H.

Sixty-eight ancient skeletons, unearthed at Jerusalem and En Gedi and, according to the archeological data belonging to Jewish residents of these places from about 1,600 to 2,000 years ago, were ABO-typed by means of the hemagglutination-inhibition test. The blood groups of 13 skeletons were undiagnosable and the remaining 55 showed the following distribution: 30.91% A-group, 14.54% B-group, 50.91% AB-group and 3.64% O-group. According to these findings, the population to which these skeletons belonged must have had a high frequency of genes IA and IB, and a low occurrence of O blood group and its related IO gene.

 

Mayan or Egyptian?

Can you find any 'reformed egyptian' here?
http://www.bbc.peachnet.edu/academic_svcs/art_science/dubay/mexico/mayan_math.html
http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~refflan...d/mayan_lost_tribes/maya_writing/writing.html

 

What is reformed egyptian?

 

Egyptian or Mayan?

Can you find any 'reformed egyptian' here?
http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/Hieratic/lesson1.html
http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/DEPT/PUB/SRC/SAOC/45/SAOC45_Lesson01.pdf
http://www.greatscott.com/hiero/
http://www.isomedia.com/homes/mjohns/calc.htm

 

That is the supposed language that the "Book of Mormon" was translated from, by Joseph Smith. Also, the "Book of Abraham". Just contrasting the two systems, to see if anyone could find that supposed language?

 

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.
If I find anything I will let you know. I see they
have postponed the excommunication hearing
indefinitely - interesting turn of events. But that
is another thread altogether and very much off
topic imo.

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Again - Thanks.

 

Still looking for reformed egyptian

Mesoamerican cultures used base 20 numeral system & several calendars with a 52-year century

Various Numeral Systems
http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/wonderquest/2002-06-28-base-60.htm
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Greek_numbers.html
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Babylonian_numerals.html
http://www.math.wichita.edu/history/topics/num-sys.html#qui
http://www.transparent.com/languagepages/hebrew/overview.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm
http://www.yahuah.org/izintro.html
http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html
http://saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/chinamh1.htm
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerals

Various Calendar Systems
http://saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/chinese.htm
http://www.transimage.com/Cal/CalChi.html
http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/Calendar.html
http://www.bible-history.com/jewishyear/jewishyear_nelson_s_illustrated_bible_dictionary.html
http://www.inkemetic.org/calnfest.htm
http://www.egyptologyonline.com/astronomy.htm
http://www.lifepositive.com/mind/culture/maya/mayan.asp
http://edj.net/mc2012/fap13.html
http://www.rocknroll.force9.co.uk/faceHair/maya.htm
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/dpalfrey/dpaztec.html

 

Actually, it is a disguised science fiction/ historical fantasy book, masquerading as a 'lost' testament of Jesus for the Americas

 

i never did enjoy science fiction much.. eh.....

 

Ancient sacred foods

The following is from a recent column that is syndicated throughout the US. I am reprinting it here just to show that none of the sacred foods mentioned are "OLD WORLD", which should have been the case if early Israelites had indeed brought them to the Western Hemisphere as mentioned in the 'Book of Mormon', since most "OLD WORLD'' foods were readily adopted once brought here. See link for history of the 'food exchange' that happened after 1492: http://www.mnh.si.edu/garden/history/


FROM UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE

FOR RELEASE: WEEK OF NOVEMBER 29, 2002

COLUMN OF THE AMERICAS by Patrisia Gonzales and Roberto Rodriguez

SEVEN GUARDIANS OF INDIGENOUS NUTRITION

Editor's note: This is a first-person column by Patrisia Gonzales

When the old ones made the people long ago, they wondered, "What
will they
eat?" They sent Quetzalcoatl to look for food. One day, he saw a
red ant
carrying something on its back. It was a kernel of corn. He asked Ant
where
he got that food. Ant responded, "Over there in sustenance
mountain." He
turned himself into a black ant and followed the red ant into food
mountain.
That's how Ant helped Quetzalcoatl find corn.

From there, Quetzacoatl brought corn, and also beans and squash.
Native
cultures call them the three sisters. They are often planted
together. Among
Mexican indigenous nutrition, there are also the "siete
guerreros," or seven
warriors. These nutritional guardians are maguey, cactus, chile,
beans,
squash, corn and amaranth.

Amid the holiday season, indigenous peoples today celebrate the
harvest
feasts and life cycles of the Earth and sun. Many celebrations are
based on
the agricultural cycle, giving thanks for what the Earth has given
us. In
indigenous nutrition, we connect to our grandmother Earth by what we
eat. We
are what we eat. (So stay away from genetically modified corn!)

Maiz. The corn tortilla is golden like the sun. We eat a little bit
of the
sun every day with tortillas de maiz. Tortillas are round like the
sun and a
woman's skirts. As the woman (or man) pats the tortilla back and
forth, the
energy of her hands is given to the food. Don Aurelio, a Nahuatl
curandero
(healer), says this is one way that female energy is passed
throughout the
family and community. (My grandmother, who of course made the
hottest,
fattest tamales, ground her own corn until the arrival of the
blender. Being
a modern woman who loved gadgets, she quickly surrendered her metate
grinding
stone, which is now mine.)

One ceremony still practiced today commemorates the sacred act of
eating:
when the tortilla is placed on the sacred fire. I have learned much
about
indigenous nutrition from teachers such as Isabel Quevedo, who
teaches about
the siete guerreros at Mexico's Nahuatl University. We learn in the
place wh
ere many teachings are passed -- in the kitchen, while eating. Unlike
Western
tradition, our kitchens are sacred geography.

El tamal is a petate, Quevedo says. In indigenous thought, the petate
(or
straw mat) is where we're born and where we die.

In our ways, nothing is thrown out. "Tira nada," says my
chef friend Antonio.
Corn silk tea cleanses kidneys, and the husks have several uses as
tiny mats
and containers. Corn tortillas are a great source of calcium.
Squash. In ancestral books, the squash seeds symbolize women's
fertility.
Like a squash, we're born with all our seeds. Fall squash, in
particular, is
a great source of vitamin A for the skin and immunity. Squash blossom
dishes
are a delicacy you can only enjoy in Mexico or if you have your own
garden.

El frijol. Eat beans five times a week, and you may lower your risk
of cancer.

El nopal -- God's food. Its slimy baba and leaf hold the medicine to
naturally balance insulin, fight off viruses and strengthen the
heart. When
doctors gave Grandma only months to live because her heart was tired,
we
cooked her fresh nopales (cactus) every day and fed her chilito and
Jell-O.
Chiles have lots of vitamin C, and are great for colds, arthritis,
depression
and pain (when combined with other herbs). And their ability to
strengthen
circulation is good for the heart. My grandma lived another three
years. Food
is medicine.

Grandmother Maguey is said to be the guardian of all the other
vegetation.
Her medicine helps people with extreme immune disorders.

Finally, amaranth -- the most complete of all grains -- is returning
to our
kitchens. This grain was outlawed in Mexico by Europeans. Isabel
Quevedo says
Europeans thought its deep red flower looked like blood. It was so
heavily
relied upon in indigenous cultures and used in ceremonies that
Europeans
forbade its growth. It was grown in secret. Quevedo says no one would
starve
or need meat if they ate this grain. It's great for atole and avena
porridges. I eat it for breakfast and add it to Mexican chocolate. It
strengt
hens the heart.

Of course, the best ingredient we put in food is "to cook with
love."

The last time we were at Nahuatl U., we saw where the old stories
came from
on our way to breakfast. "There's a lot of Quetzalcoatl
here," said Quevedo,
as we watched in wonder of this blessing. We saw red ants carrying
fat
kernels of corn.

COPYRIGHT 2002 UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE

 

Religeous leaders have, for millenia, been ignoring or re-interpretting new scientific discoveries so as not to jeopardize their divinely inspired doctrine. My guess is that the Mormons will easily find a way to live with any scientific evidence showing American Indians are not descendents of the lost tribes of Israel.

 

You may be right, I feel that they will have only 3 options in the future, after failed attempts at trying to prove the Book of Mormon 'historical':
1) to ignore all evidence to the contrary that the BoM is false
2) to have a "revelation" by one of their new "Prophets", that god no longer needs the BoM or
3) the LDS will need to change into a mainline Christian church?
Unknown what the outcome will be?

 

The sad thing about faith is that it demands you believe in something even when there is a whole world of evidence against it. Some could point at the sky and say it was a fish provided some religious text said so.