Black holes may not exist!

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by RJBeery, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    OK, I get it now and I've thought about it. Here's the rub, and it doesn't invoke the "infinite energy" objection: your infinitely accelerating observer is undergoing constant acceleration...forever. He is asymptotically approaching a velocity of c (relative to any inertial frame), just as if he were falling into an event horizon. A remote bookkeeper would claim that the traveler's clock is slowing to a crawl; he is essentially freezing in time, analogous to the event horizon journey. Therefore, it is expected that there would be events in spacetime which do not exist for the traveler...because he has essentially been frozen in time compared to the rest of the universe. Frankly I'd say that this only strengthens the frozen clock argument...
     
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  3. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, it sounds to me that you just acknowledged that the infalling traveler never freezes, he just moves slower and slower and slower, forever, according to the distant observer.
     
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  5. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    The infinite accelerator differs from the event horizon infaller by the crucial fact that the event horizon infaller's proper velocity reaches c at the event horizon.
     
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  7. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. So we agree that you were wrong before, right?
     
  8. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    I've been wrong before but not on anything in this thread that I'm aware of. And I was speaking directly to przyk if that wasn't clear; thanks.
     
  9. przyk squishy Valued Senior Member

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    You've got the comparison backwards. The accelerating traveller is analogous to an observer staying outside the black hole and maintaining a constant Schwarzschild radial distance outside of it. A free-falling observer would be more closely analogous to an inertial observer in SR.

    (Also, the accelerating traveller doesn't freeze, in that his clock doesn't converge to a particular limiting time.)


    Why should the proper velocity approaching c in Schwarzschild coordinates mean anything? The proper velocity isn't an invariant (though it's a component of the four-velocity vector). Also, in an SR inertial frame, the proper velocity becomes infinite, and not c, for a body approaching the speed of light.
     
  10. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Well I suppose you can be wrong each time, but I'd probably prefer becoming right eventually. So which is it? Were you wrong before when you said that he freezes or were you wrong this time when you said he doesn't? Here it is again:
    Right: asymptotically approaching C - forever - and seeing the person's clock continue to get slower and slower - forever - is indeed what you see happen to someone falling into a black hole. The speed continues to slow - forever - and he never actually freezes.
     
  11. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    I know it is late, but:
    So since you made no other comment on the graph but to say it is "good", then at this point you must agree that you were wrong before, correct? You now recognize that the distant observer never sees the infalling observer actually freeze, right?

    But oops:
    So you saw the graph, had no comment other than that it was good, then repeat your error. So either you didn't really look at it or you didn't understand what it says or you do understand that you are wrong and you are trying to just dodge-away.
     
  12. Farsight Valued Senior Member

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    No. He sees him going slower and slower until motion is imperceptible. As per a glacier.

    As above.
     
  13. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Success! I can't believe you actually acknowledged it!

    So where do we go from here? Do you want to correct all of the rest of your errors based on your now admitted false premise or should I go through them too?

    We can start with the most obvious: since the infaller now doesn't freeze, there is nothing to stop him from crossing the event horizon, right? He doesnt freeze so he is always aware of what is happening to him and it never looks odd to him (as per the Principle of Relativity). Their differences in perception are just that: differences in perception caused by the space between them altering what they perceive.

    We all good now?
     
  14. Farsight Valued Senior Member

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    I haven't made any errors. A glacier is frozen. The infaller freezes, he stops perceiving. And like I said, the black hole grows like a hailstone. The infaller is like a water molecule. When he joins the hailstone he doesn't pass through the surface. But he gets buried by other water molecules. So the surface passes through him.
     
  15. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    The glacier is a great analogy and you picked it too well: as you said in your previous post (correctly) a glacier is NOT frozen, it is just moving so slowly that its motion is "imperceptible".

    You acknowledged it. You can't back away from it now. And why would you want to? Isn't understanding physics your goal? Or is it just trolling?
     
  16. Farsight Valued Senior Member

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    Uh, a glacier is not frozen?

    So ice is not frozen?

    Russ, you're on ignore.
     
  17. nimbus Registered Senior Member

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  18. nimbus Registered Senior Member

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  19. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, glaciers move, as you are clearly aware. Frozen - as in the solid form of water - and frozen - as in not moving - are completely different uses of the same word. You're not an idiot: clearly you know this. And the glacier example was so perfectly chosen, it is almost as if you purposely set yourself up to fail! This flip-flopping on what "frozen" means makes you look like a dying fish, suffocating and flopping around on the ground. Ignoring me is you hitting the eject button and conceding defeat. Clearly, I've broken you.

    Next!

    So, RJ, you still following Farsight down his hole?
     
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I think we can confidently conclude, that GR type BH's and there EH's exist as per general acceptance.
    I certainly have not seen anything to contradict or falsify that at all.
     
  21. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    Perfect. Along those lines we can also confidently conclude that God exists.
    It's generally accepted, yes? Plus, I doubt you've seen anything to contradict this fact.
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    You have evidence of God???

    We do have evidence [lots and lots of it] of GR BH's and EH's.
    Do you have any evidence to falsify that?
     
  23. Uncle Pythagoras Banned Banned

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    There is no evidence of Black Holes, just holes.
     

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