Black Holes, fact or fiction?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by thed, Jan 17, 2002.

  1. 2inquisitive The Devil is in the details Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,181
    Explain again how those two magnets are pushed together and end up in the lowest
    energy state. While they are separated by a distance large enough that they don't
    interact, they are in a higher energy state, but when "pushed" together, they are
    in a relaxed state?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Zarkov Banned Banned

    Messages:
    657
    >> While they are separated by a distance large enough that they don't
    interact,

    If the two magnets were in a completely empty Universe, they would move (acclerate) towards each other, no matter how far apart they were... Magnetic and electric fields extend to infinity, but they get moderated by other extraneous magnetic/electric fields.

    If you held one magnet stationary and the other magnet was free to move, you could say that the free magnet has its potential energy at a maximum.... when the two magnets are together the potential energy is zero.

    All objects in the Universe seek their lowest energy state.... you do work to move the magnets apart, you can reclaim this work by allowing them to come back together.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Please as I have said post re this discussion in the "Action at a Distance" thread in the Math and Physics stream.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. 2inquisitive The Devil is in the details Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,181
    Zarkov, we don't live in a completely empty universe. And these were MY magnets!!!
    They had never been in contact. They were pulled together by an attractive force.
    And I did work to pull them apart. Funny thing. I just fliped one of them over. Now
    it's positive to positive and negative to negative poles. I have to PUSH them together.
    They reclaim this energy by pushing themselves apart. One way, an attractive force,
    the other way, a repulsive force. And I do know what entrophy is. (But maybe not
    how to spell it)
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Zarkov Banned Banned

    Messages:
    657
    >> Zarkov, we don't live in a completely empty universe.

    I am aware of that, but can you prove it?

    In this Universe all magnets are linked, all electric charges are linked.

    Only nothing exists in isolation.

    That is just the way the Universe works.
     
  8. 2inquisitive The Devil is in the details Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,181
    You just proved the universe is not completely empty. Can you prove all magnets
    are linked, all electrical charges are linked? Statements are not proofs.
     
  9. Zarkov Banned Banned

    Messages:
    657
    >> Can you prove all magnets are linked, all electrical charges are linked?

    Of course

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Using observations and Electrodynamic Spin Gravity Theory, I can prove

    the gravity on the Moon is due to differential field spin caused by the Earth..
    the gravity on the Earth is due to differential field spin caused by the Sun..
    the gravity on the Sun is due to differential field spin caused by the Milky Way..... etc and on into the greater Universe

    The BxEcross field.in each case is due to the superposition of magnetic and electric vectors in these geomagnetic bodies... thus all magnetic fields and all electric fields are co-joined..
     
  10. 2inquisitive The Devil is in the details Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,181
    Zarkov, you have really impressed me with your "proofs".

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  11. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Oh,really how do you explain more and more evidences of the great masses,also a few days ago there was a first direct evidence of a supermassive black hole who actually ripped star apart.Black hole is just a really lot of matter in a very small place.If you don't know every galaxy has the centre,in which every centre that centre of the galaxy has 0.5% mass of the galaxy-those are supermassive black holes.What do you need as a proof for existence of the black holes-throwing yourself into a black hole?No offence,but looks like it's the only way to prove to you that black holes exist.What do you think where does star goes,when you see its brightness is falling down into nothingness?You're unrealistically sceptic.Also,if you didn't the nano-black hole has been created in the lab.If they didn't shut down the process,there would an total disaster,causing the destruction of the Earth itself and beyond.If black holes can be artificially created,what makes you think they can't be created in the universe?When you look really great mass in one small place,you know that is the black hole.There are so many evidences,that don't support anything you said,and the recent news that black hole has ripped star apart,tells that this is the black hole.And yes,black hole does attract matter,as wel as stars' marnetic fields,black hole is much like a hole in the universe.You have to have very good evidences to disprove the non-existence of black holes.If so how can you explain enormous mass in one place where everything is falling inside that mass,and becomes invisible?You should watch more documentaries on this,inside the centre of the galaxy where is a truly great mass,whatelse can be,if not the black hole-only the black hole has that mass-I advice you to watch the documentary "Supermassive black holes".
     
  12. Zarkov Banned Banned

    Messages:
    657
    Back to black holes.... good.

    So you believe in attraction ?

    Well what you recount is an interpretation based upon attraction theory.

    Strange how both Newton and Einstein knew, ( along with hosts of other thinkers) that attraction just is impossible.
     
  13. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    You really seem to like this phrase, but you don't seem to know what it actually refers to. It doesn't have anything to do with gravity. Einstein coined the phrase "spooky action at a distance" when talking about quantum entanglement. If a pair of particles - say, two electrons – are entangled, then a measurement made on one particle can instantly effect the other particle, no matter how far apart they are. This phenomenon has been experimentally demonstrated, but Einstein always hated it. He derided the idea that one particle could instantly alter the state of another particle that was a long distance away as being 'spooky action at a distance'.

    To reiterate, Einstein was talking about quantum entanglement. It had nothing to do with gravity. Check out the following links for more information:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox
    http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/23jan_entangled.htm
     
  14. Zarkov Banned Banned

    Messages:
    657
    Thanks Nasor, well there certainly is a confusion on some the part of some articles I have read.

    >> When one such particle is changed, the other will change too (instantly). Einstein called this behavior 'spooky action at a distance', and considered it unacceptable.

    Yep there it is....

    OK, I will update my files, Thanks.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  15. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Question:What research yielded this evidence or idea. How is it possible to messure the density of a black hole, let a lone a supermassive black hole. Remember, black holes may be portals, or doors, or anything. If everythings being "sucked" into a black hole, the majority of the mass would be at the end of this black hole... and if there aren't any differences in mass from the front to the rear of the black hole, common sense would say, its obviously going somewhere else.
    Answer: The research involves looking at the motions of stars in the centers of galaxies. These motions imply a dark, massive body whose mass can be computed from the speeds of the stars. The matter that falls into a black hole adds to the mass of the black hole. Its gravity doesn't disappear from the universe.

    Question:Is it possible that a black hole could become so isolated that it becomes essentially invisible?
    Answer:Yes. There are three ways to detect black holes: (1) By observing X-rays or other forms of light emitted by gas falling into a black hole; (2) By observing the gravitational effects of black holes on nearby such as stars; (3) By observing the gravitational lensing of light by a black hole in front of a background star or galaxy. This last method is difficult to prove because other types of objects such as neutron stars are difficult to rule out. The first two methods, which have been used to discover many stellar mass black holes and supermassive black holes, require nearby gas or stars. If a black hole is so isolated that no gas or stars are in the vicinity, it will become essentially invisible.
    Although it is possible though not believed likely, that a black hole could be charged, they are not expected to have a magnetic field. The magnetic fields around a black holes that are thought to produce the spectacular jets of high-energy particles rushing away from black holes come from the disk of hot gas around the black hole, not the black hole itself.
    The black hole is invisible, but it is definitely there, and makes its presence known by its gravitational force which causes stars and gas near it to swirl around the black hole at tremendous speeds.

    Question:Could a black hole in our galaxy ever be strong enough to suck our solar system into it?
    Answer:It would have to be so close that its gravity could overcome the orbital acceleration of our solar system around the center of the galaxy. That would be well within a light year, even for a million solar mass black hole, which we would definitely know about!

    A supermassive black hole in the center of our own Milky Way galaxy:
    In 1971 Donald Lynden-Bell and Martin Rees suggested that the center of our galaxy should contain a supermassive black hole. In 1974, Bruce Balick and Robert Brown found a compact radio source there. This source came to known as Sagitarrius A* (Sgr A*) to distinguish it from more a extensive radio source Sgr A in the same region. Infrared observations in the 1980s strengthened the case for a supermassive black hole.
    The most recent breakthrough has been provided in the last 6 years by infrared images from the European Southern Observatories' New Technology Telescope (A. Eckart and R. Genzel) and the Keck Telescope (Andrea Ghez and collaborators).These results suggest a black hole with a mass of 2.6 million solar masses.Recently (September 2001) Fred Baganoff and collaborators used the Chandra X-ray Observatory to observe an X-ray flare that brightened in about ten minutes provided more strong evidence for a black hole. It is difficult to imagine any other type of object that could flare up so brightly in so short a time.

    Question:How do black holes affect our solar system?
    Answer:Although there are probably millions of black holes in our galaxy, because of the vastness of the galaxy it is extremely unlikely that a black hole will collide with the solar system. However, there is another potential source of danger from a black hole. Some astrophysicists have speculated that a gamma ray burst could occur nearby (within a few hundred light years) with the burst directed toward Earth, and cause widespread damage to life on Earth. From the frequency of gamma ray bursts in the observable universe, it is estimated that such a disaster could occur every few hundred million years.

    Question:If it is true that the magnetic field of a black hole is so strong that even light can't escape it ,what will happen when one black hole comes under the influence of the magnetic field of another black hole?
    Answer: It is the gravtitational field, not the magnetic field, of a black hole that is so strong that it captures llight. If two black holes collide, calculations indicate that they will merge to form a larger, more massive black hole. Large amounts of gravitational waves may be produced in such a merger, which is why scientists are excited by the prospect of gravitational wave observatories.

    Question: Could the supermassive black holes discovered at the center of nearly all visible galaxies possibly make up for the lack of mass observed in the universe? And since so little is know about the interior regions of a black hole, where the majority of physics and mathematics may not even be applicable, could the computations of the mass of these large bodies be miscalculated?
    Answer:It does not seem possible that supermassive black holes in the centers of galaxies can account for the dark matter, for two reasons. First, research over the past few years has shown that the mass of the supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies is less than a percent of the mass of their host galaxy. Secondly, the distribution of the dark matter is not consistent with a central massive object. In order to explain the motions of the stars and galaxies, it must be spread out throughout the individual galaxies, and beyond, so that a more appropriate view would be of a galaxy embedded in a large invisible ball of dark matter.
    The evidence for a black hole in the center of our galaxy is very strong. Stars and gas clouds are observed to be moving rapidly around a dark object that has the mass equivalent to about 3 million suns. The only known object that could have so much mass and still be dark is a black hole. So, unless Einstein's theory of gravity breaks down, our galactic center must contain a black hole.

    Question:In regard to the recent black hole flare,something occured to me. If light cannot escape the black hole, what happens to it? Is it bright somewhere within? Or are the photons destroyed or changed?
    Answer:You are correct in your assumption that light cannot escape from a black hole. This is why the recent report on the flare from the supermassive black hole in the center of our galaxy emphasize that the flare was from the vicinity of a black hole. The event horizon of this black hole has a radius of about 10 million kilometers, and the flare is thought to have occurred at a distance of about about 100 million kilometers.

    Question

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    oes Chandra indicate more Quasar/Super Massive Black Holes like PKS 0637-72 than previously were thought to exist in the early years of the universe? Studies I have read theorize the Universe will fizzle out after a "Black Hole" era.
    Answer:The Chandra data indicates that the number of active black holes is about two or more times greater than previously thought. Among the most interesting long term results from Chandra will be greatly improved estimates of the number of stellar sized and supermassive black holes in the universe. The "Black Hole" era you mention may refer to the era in the far distant future after all the stars have burned out, elementary particles have decayed into neutrinos and gamma rays, and eventually, black holes evaporate by the Hawking process. The latter time is huge, being about a 100 trillion octillion yotta-years, or 1 followed by 65 zeroes, for a 10 solar mass black hole, and a quintillion times longer than that for a 10 million solar mass black hole! (1 yotta-year = a trillion trillion years).

    For decades, black holes were the darlings of science fiction writers but treated with perhaps a little less respect by physicists. Although general relativity predicted that black holes could exist, many scientists thought they were too bizarre to exist in the real universe. That’s all changed. Astronomers have now detected several black holes in X-ray-emitting binary star systems, where a normal star orbits a massive yet invisible companion that theory says must be a black hole. Even more convincing evidence has come from the centers of several large galaxies, where stars move about so quickly that they must be caught in the grips of a massive object. By calculating the size and mass of these objects, the only conclusion seems to be that the center of these galaxies harbor super massive black holes.
     
  16. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Not,if you have enough great mass.
     
  17. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    The only problem Zarkov is that gravity doesn't pull in the way you think.It is the mass that creates gravity,and that's why star,or any other kind of matter falling into a black hole(exrteme gravity field).You should never have problems with understanding this,really.The problem is you have to pass event horizont of the black hole.How comets come to Earth,Earth's gravity pulls them in.Again the great mass.Your example of door doesn't have anything to it,and your last chapter about solar bodies proves that gravity pulls on matter,but after an point if you get close enough to that gravity field.You said that elliptical motion is seen, this is due to an electrostatic force pushing all the solar bodies away from their centres of spin-black holes do have such thing-that's why they can travel,and that how they lose energy(every body,like you said has ellipctical motion,due to electrostatic force),and the gravity of the black hole is faaaaar above any electrostatic force.The electrostatic force of an star is lost after that star loses all the fuel and than explodes(the external part of the star),but the gravity immensely affects the inner part of the star because there is just too much mass on the same place-that's why a star gets collapsed into itself,and the black hole is created.PROVE ME WRONG if you can!I'll answer it next week.
     
  18. apolo Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    172
    APOLO

    It took me about an hour to read this thread, but I found it facinating. Do black holes exist ? or are they invented by scientists to explain something mysterious in the universe that that seems to defy common sense. I have never been covinced that BHs actually existed.

    It is common beleif that there is a mssive BH at the center of our galaxy. But if that is so, how come the center of the galaxy is brightest spot in the galaxy? Would'nt the BH suck in all the photons in that area so it ought to be the darkest
    point?

    ZARKOW has some interesting ideas, though I dont beleive 100%
    of what he is saying, it is refreshing to see a maveric who dares to challenge some of the dogma that has been built up over the last 15 years to try to save the old BIG BANG theory
    Some one said "the state of cosmology today is one of confusion and illusion" I totally agree.

    APOLO
     
  19. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241

    Black holes DO exist!
    There are more and more proofs every year that black holes exist!
    Q25 beat Zarkov in these debates and provide some arguments:
    Here is the website:

    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=9833
     
  20. General Chaos Registered Member

    Messages:
    1
    Given the effect of gravitational lensing, black holes should be the brightest objects in the sky if they truly exist.

    We know that at the event horizon, light would be trapped in orbit, but what would happen to a ray of light that passes very close to the horizon? It would be bent depending on how close it is the the horizon, if it is close enough, it could be bent all the way back to the source of the light. Looking at a single black hole, we can imagine that for every star in the universe, there is a path that light can take that would go near this black hole and be bent toward the earth. Why doesnt this happen?
     
  21. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    You missed only one thing:Light can't get out of the black hole!If light passes close to the event horizon,it would be sucked in the black hole.When light falls,we would see X-rays,before falling into a black hole.
     
  22. RawThinkTank Banned Banned

    Messages:
    429
    The alien conspiracy just struck me.

    Why would a star explode into a supernova first and then form a black hole when gravity on anybody is maximum at its surface ?

    Why cant the start just explode and its matter just hush away for formation of new stars.
    And if nothing can escape black hole then how does the information of its presence escape from it, this is all confusing, the concept of black holes is absolutely ridiculous.

    Now here is a huge problem ! When a star forms into a black hole then radius of its gravitational pull doesnt increase then why is a super massive black hole at galaxies center theory required ?

    Here is a killer ! Please read this para 10 times as all humans on this planet r victims of alien brain wash to stop us inventing warp drive. If its not the light that bends but space, then will we ever know about it, because the light should regain its path once it passes away from black hole along with the regaining of curvature of space ? But we do get a Lens effect suggesting that its not space but light that is bending, if that is correct than how many modern physics theories collapse ?

    Please correct above statements for their deficiencies.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2004
  23. apolo Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    172
    The posts in this thread seems to have strayed a long way from the article posted by thed. However I'l admit that i've had my doubts about BLACK HOLES. Many scientists when they write books put a little hook in the text when they mention
    BLACK HOLES like "these are hypothetical entities whoes existence have not been absolutely proven" and then they cary on. Yes I have also read the article quoted by thed by MOTTOLA & MAZUR quite a while ago and I dont know what to say
    , It is certainly the first consice and logical attack on the BH theory I have seen yet.

    However I have a question that no one has answered to my satisfaction yet. "If BHs exist, and if they have the properties they are supposed to have, everything goes in and nothing out, and as every one says that our galaxy has a giant BH at the center. How come that the center of our Milky Way is extreemly bright? " you would think that the BH would
    suck in every photon in the naihbourhood ! !

    REGARDS APOLO
     

Share This Page