Apendrapew My point is why distinguish black violence as opposed to violence in general? Why not try to discuss the violent nature of our society as a whole? Why instead, do you and Alex for that matter attempt to put it down to black violence and to your argument, to black biology? You totally fail to address the reasons as to why blacks in Western society are projected as being more violent. You barely touched on it. Instead, you classify it as being biological. Interesting... So now it is an excessive amount of testosterone and low IQ which makes them violent. So blacks are now less intelligent then the white people? Apen, my whole point in my previous post is that by merely claiming it to be biological, you have also failed to recognise reasons and causes that has resulted in blacks being over-represented in your criminal justice system. You fail to recognise or even acknowledge the socio-economic factors that plague the black community who live below the poverty line in the US for example. You fail to address the issue of a failing educational system due to lack of Government funding. You do not even look at the fact that black people in Western societies are more prone to being under closer scrutiny by the police for example because of the prevailing notion that blacks commit more crimes and therefore must be policed a lot more and as a result, even if they are doing nothing, they automatically come under suspicion of things such as loitering. You also do not look at their high unemployment levels when compared to whites, because in part, caused by racism. Instead you put it down to mere biology. And it is a cop out on your part. And it is interesting to note how you apply your argument to just colour. What about Aboriginals in Australia who are also over-represented in the Australian criminal system? Is it biological for them as well because they are "black"? Do they have a lower IQ as well because they are black? Or do the factors that I listed above come into it? Are there many blacks in tennis, skiing, track ice skating, cycling, to name but a few? Do you even see how racist that comment from you was? Yes, but then look at the other countries in that list. The majority of them are not 'black' countries. And as to South Africa being second on the list. Why do you think that is? Could it be again that their poverty driven by the socio-economic factors in their country, coupled with a lack of educational funding, bad health care, racism, etc, have anything to do with it. The same can be applied to the higher than average murder rate in Columbia.. a country plagued by poverty. I am not saying that blacks are more violent because I have yet to see any proof that blacks are more violent. You put it all down to mere biology because of what you read long ago in some psychology books. But you show no proof of it. You claim all this because you just "know". If we are going to look at murder rates per capita, then one could also say that Russians are more violent than the blacks in the US. Yet, you also do not consider that. You see, I find this to be interesting. So whites are less violent than blacks? Even Alex acknowledges that in the UK, whites have as much propensity to be as violent as blacks... eg football hooligans are predominantly white. I find it interesting that Alex starts this thread after a woman is shot by a black person, yet he did not start a thread titled 'white crime' after 100 or so white youths attacked 3 children because they looked Middle Eastern. But no, that's not 'white crime'... because it's not in white "biology" to be violent (insert sarcasm here)... Instead, you look at 'black crime' instead. As I pointed out to you before, why not look at crime in general or violence in general. Why point the finger to only blacks? I mean, you want a perfect example of white violence? Look at Cottontop here... So a white person living in poverty in a trailer park has the same biology as a black person? You do not look at the individual's biology Apen... You look at the whole race and say that it is biological for that particular race or because of their colour. That is what I and many others here find so hard to believe. So by saying you "know" it's biological, you are now merely speculating? Apen, you come off as being racist when you make such statements and when you claim that a whole group of people are more prone to being violent because of their colour. You come off as being rapist when you make a claim that colour results in a lower IQ... And all these claims are all unfounded... all you have come up with as a back-up to all your claims has been to only say because "I know". Now you "tell me why this is so"..
Bell you make a few statements about me in your last post that I would like to correct. I have never said that I believe Biology is a cause of Blacks committing crime. I posted this message to learn the POSSIBLE causes for this form of crime. I also did not post a message about 100 whites attacking 3 people because I have a right to post any topic I chose. I am also unaware of the incident you have mentioned despite the fact that I follow the news. In fact racist crime here makes headline news so I am shocked I am unaware of it. Could you give me the details? When did this attack happen I cannot find anything on it when searching? Also if it was such a big deal to you, why didn't you start a thread on it?
alexb123: You haven't established that there is a problem, yet. Why single out black people? Crime is a problem for white people, too. Then why call your thread "Black Crime"? Why not just call it "crime", and leave the racist rubbish out of it? Is it? Show me your statistics. (Why didn't you call this thread "Gun Crime"?)
I didn't say that you made the statement about the biology issue: That was aimed at Apen, not you. Sorry for the confusion there. What I would like to understand is this... Why single out one particular group when all groups commit crimes and violence is so prevalent throughout society as a whole? Violence and crime is not particularly bound to one group in society. Yes you do have a right to choose what you post. However, I was merely stating an example. Crime should not be specifically applied to one particular race or to a group of people because of their colour. Crime is something that affects society as a whole. By pointing the finger at one group or singling out one group, you further exacerbate the issue by making it racial. As to the story itself... here is a link about it... And a thread was already started on it and the attack occured in September 2004. The people involved were going through court in August this year. As to why you did not hear about it.. that is something you need to look at within your country's media.
James are you in the UK. Because many of the issues I am raising here are current news in the UK, Gun Crime Etc. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1442617,00.html Gun crime in the UK is still very small but we need to keep it that way. I have also said white crime happens and is another issue, I wanted to deal with this one at this time. I am finding that people here that are waving the Anti-Racist flag (despite no clear evidence of racism for all the accusations) are very repressive to people who do not share there same views. Where as I have not even stated my own personal views on the issue but I am still attacked over simple wording interpretations. I am here to learn, full stop, that’s all. I have also already stated that I base my post on the MacPhearson Report as proof of a black crime problem. I am only saying there is a problem and I would like to understand the cause more. So please stop telling me other areas I could post about because it’s stupid. Here is also a link from a black community page it gives a balanced view and it points out that proportionately the number of blacks involved in street crime is a matter of concern. Which I agree with, its not a flogging offence its just a social problem that a certain community faces. We have many social problems and this is just one of them. And it is a solvable problem but only if people start to address it. Rather than the denial approach that many people take. http://www.blink.org.uk/pdescription.asp?key=1022&grp=55&cat=199
Bell differant sections of society have there own unique cause for the crimes that they commit. That is why it is important that it is look at in terms of race. And as it happen I believe that blacks reasons for committing crime are more complex than most and much of it is media influence, social etc. I am just thankfull that policy makers would not think like you. You cannot have a one size fits all when it comes to crime. I also raise this issue because it is CURRENT news in the UK and because I have a right too. So please stop questioning my right to free speak. Also the news artical you posted the link for was about 2 youths being beaten unconscious as sad as that is it nobody died. I also now know the case you are talking about which isn't current news. It was reported here but I thought you were talking about a very recent event. And by the way pur media is very hot on race related crime. Please try and understand that people are DIEING here and I think that it needs to be talked about. You cannot compare the UK Gun crime problem with a
Here is another link about Operation Trident and the problems of Blacks killing Blacks. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2190483.stm
you already begin with a pre-established idea of biological causes if you take serious thee white-based 'research' about terosterone and IQs etc.....they truly are a pile if BS. truly madly deeply as i have said, some of THEmost insidiously violent heartless people are those with so-called high IQs.....think of the Nazis deviasing their Final Solution...may wre really highly educated thnk of the establishment you belong to, bascially psychiatry--forpsychology is a branch of it. they have created untold misery on peoples, ad still do, yet have your so-called high IQs you are barking up the wrong tree. are really very naive, you areimagining that theproblem of 'black' crime as you call it is somehow a worthwhile scapegoat, WITHOUTexamining the reeal manipulating frces behind it. for example, the Drug War....have yo any idea howmuch this war on [SOME] drugs has contributed to violence all oever the world, and to the vast proportion of black and ethnic pople in jail?....do yo not thinkthat this drug war wasn't devized b people with a so-called high IQ?.....so what does that tell you then? you see Alex, our whole approach is completely witin te box--so to speak. utterly naive. you will never find your answers, cause you are exploring the wrong questions. thoug i suppose keeping in your box will allow you to feel somewhat superior. you know the 'whiteman' wanting to 'help' an all that? heard the saying....."the way to hell is paved with good intentions"?
That article says nothing about "black crime". It does however discuss gun crimes and gun violence in the UK. So why are you bringing race and colour into the fray? Because this article does not even mention race. The MacPhearson Report? Do you have a link to it? Or do you mean the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry from the late 1990's? Because if that is the case, then you should also be aware that Stephen Lawrence was one of two black boys killed by a gang of white men in what was deemed an unprovoked attack and it's mishandling by the police, resulting in the report which showed the institutionalised racism in the police force in the UK. So if this is the inquiry you meant, how does it refer to 'black crime' exactly? Or do you mean the MacPerson Report, which again deals with how the British justice system should deal with racism within said system? Yes it is a matter for concern. After all, isn't all crime a matter for concern? However, from your link which deals with crime and levels of the disproportionate representation in your criminal justice system of those in the young Black and Asian community... Yes... and it also results in some people labelling it as "black crime", thereby further demonising the issue. Again, all the reports and links you have provided do not classify it as a 'racial issue' or view the levels of crimes as being specifically racial. The only racial issue any of the reports you appear to quote state is that of the racism in the criminal justice system and more specifically the police force. So why are you looking at it in terms of race and that one particular race and or colour is more prone to crime because of said race and or colour? And are you discussing race here or colour? Because blacks are not only of African origin. For example, as I stated above in a previous post, Aboriginals in Australia are also over-represented in the criminal justice system. Tell me, is that because of their colour? Is it because they are black that they are more prone to criminal behaviour? And how about in the UK. Do blacks also consist of Asians as well as those of African descent? Or are you just looking at colour as a rough guide? No one is questioning your right to free speech. We are merely questioning what you are saying. If you are unable to answer questions about what you post and your reasons for posting it, then that is something you need to deal with. Yes, luckily nobody did die. But does that make it any less violent for those who were the victims? Does it make the perpetrators of the attack any less violent? Does it make those responsible for the attack any less criminal? And your MacPhearson Report does not appear to be current or exist either. Any reference to it are termed the MacPerson Report and that is from the late 90's. And that deals with the issue of racism in the police department in how they deal with victims of racial attacks. With a what? And yes people are dying there. And again, the report listed in the Times article does not deal with race or colour, but deals with gun violence in general. So why is it black crime? Ah yes, your article from 2002... I think this is quite telling don't you?.. However, lets look at some figures from the links you have posted: Yes... 'black crime' indeed. Your postings make it look like all gun crimes are from the black community. When none of the links, reports or articles you show as proof actually show this. I mean you gave the link to one site that does not deal with black gun crime, but with robbery and even that appears to work against you because it shows that the higher number of Asians and blacks in your criminal justice system may have been victimised by the police because of their colour and race. So you are concerned about blacks killing blacks Alex? Well what do you think should be done about it? Should the police maybe start investigating such crimes a bit better? Should the police maybe stop viewing all black people as criminals, as was shown with the MacPerson Report, and actually listen to their complaints? Should society address the socio-economic issues, education issues, racism issues, health and housing issues that plague the coloured communities in your country and in other countries? I don't know Alex, you keep saying 'black crime' 'black crime' and say it is an issue. Yet half the reports you quote or have given links to seem to show mostly the inherent racism in your police force. So what do you propose to do about it all?
You are saying that the links do not backup the black involment in gun crime. Did you not read it? Here is a section and yes it is from 2002 so what? Since 2002 things have in some years improved but I believe that this year it has taken a step backwards. And I know for a fact that this weekend it took a big step backwards. If the latest figures for drugs-related gun crime within London's black communities are anything to go by, then 2002 is not shaping up to be a good year for Operation Trident, the city's specialist team focusing on crime committed by black criminals against black communities. According to the Metropolitan Police's own predictions, 2002 is set to see another massive rise in shootings, murders and attempted murders as a small number of gangs wield an enormous and terrifying sway in pockets of the capital. So it's not surprising that the Met is ploughing more resources into the problem, including a radio advertisement with music by a top UK garage group, NAP Syndicate.
Alexb You divert away from the question at hand by bring up other issues. Yes they are also very important issues but they are not the issues at hand. I am also aware that books are available on many subjects but this is a forum for open discussion not a further reading conference. The issue at hand is race and crime? I'm suggesting that you go out there and read a few books on the subject and some others that influence it cos in order to have an INFORMED discussion you need to have some background information. It is obvious from the things you are saying that you do not have the prerequisite information. Maybe if people would stick to the subject we could all feel that we have learnt something from this Thread. Isn't learning from each other the reason most of us are here? See paragraph above. Ok the topic is has been reworded for extra forum friendliness and now stand as…….. A number of young black males go down the road to crime (as do whites but that’s another topic) why do these people from this section of society take this route? And what if anything could be done to make other more constructive life options available to them? Oh please! Will you just listen to yourself. Read this: Institutionalised racism, guns, low self esteem, poverty, anger, drugs, gang culture, survival. Solutions: complex and varied and not easily answered in a sciforum but reading a few more books on the subject might give you a clearer picture. Perhaps we should just get tough on the causes of crime, eh Tony? Also, suggest you get in touch with your local youth offending team who deal first hand with crime related issues.
Sniffy since when do you need to ba an expert on a subject to talk about it at this forum? Also, when you talk about black people and crime on this forum, people say it is wrong and white people and crime should also be discussed. This is like having a conversation about French food but being told you have to also speak about Spainish food. They are the same subject matter but diff areas. It is the same with white crime or black crime same area diff subjects.
Skin isn't black Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Read this again! Why did you need to say "including the blacks"? EQUAL Jobs, EQUAL Education, EQUAL Freedom and choice. EQUAL LAW. Survey and Study done! Problems that were caused by who? It's guilt (the reason for head in sand).
alexb Not an expert just better informed and if you are not better informed then be prepared to take in the comments that the obviously better informed make (and Baron Max and his ilk are not counted as the latter). The subject 'black' anything is a loaded one because it is almost always linked to crime, misdemeaners, biological inferiority or some other such negativety commonly known as racism. It is very tiring countering these stupid notions but dangerous to give up trying. Gun crime? There's not one darn thing you can do about it except stay out of the way. Your own attitudes, thought processes and learning (if you genuinely want to) now there's something you can change for the better. Said with love in my heart. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Sniffy why would anyone here need to be better informed on any subject? I would say the less we know on a subject the more important it is to debate it here. After all I offered no personal views, I posed a question that is all. What you are saying here is the person that reads the most book is the person who is correct. I don't agree with that line of thinking, it's very classist. If you feel a certain level of knowledge is needed before a thread can be made then this is exclusion. I for one would never attempt to promote any exclusion this in its self is a form of discrimination. The problem here is that people have judged my 'personal' views based on some very subjective wording. This can also be likened to saying all blacks who wear hooded tops are criminals. But instead you are saying that any ambiguous use of the word 'black' means the person is a racist. I am sure you will agree that both of these statements are untrue. No one here knows my personal views but many people have formed an opinion of these views without enough evidence being put forward. Judge Jury and Executioner? This form of thinking goes against a fair justice system. Justice meaning "a concept involving the fair, moral, and impartial treatment of all persons" Is this again proof of discrimination?
Exactly! And at least in the USA, if one brings up "black" in ANY conversation, he's automatically labeled a "racist" ...and anything that he says after that is ignored or hotly refuted ...even if what he says is true!! No, we've fought for years to get equal justice for all, yet we've gone over the top ....if a black is even investigated for wrong-doiing, it's automatically picked up as "racist" and the news media gives it a blitz. Justice? No, we've NOT come a long way, baby! ....LOL! Baron Max
yes baron max, you sit in front of your computer smugly laughing because you haven't got any deep insight, or you wouldn't be so arrogant.. you imply that because of political correctness saying black or blaming blacks is condemned, but why then are people of dark colpur filling the prisons, and put on psychiatric medication--in may cases coercively? i preempt your reaction to me saying this as being 'cause they deserve it', right? which straight away in your narrow worldview feeds you prejudice, as in a visious circle. s all you can see and experience is your limited view of the matter. you simplycannot and will not see people with dark skin as being human. tis is why people such as yourself seek a 'biological' explanation, as did/do the nazis for their dehumanization of th Jews, the Gays, and all those they deemed--'scientifcally' throug teir 'occultic' beliefs to be inferior......this you latch onto anything which villifies black people with such demeaning terms as 'black crime'--as tough crime comes in colours! You have no real empathy. cant feel beyond your ingrained attitude, which i am not the only one aware of here it isquite ironic actually how in your condemnation of err'black' crime, you dont see YOUR OWN violence in your words and beliefs!
alexb123 I think the question that needs to be asked is did you read the reports you've mentioned? Because half of them deal with the inherent racism in the police force. Operation Trident was set up to investigate gang violence, specifically drug related gun violence, in black communities and it was seen as a means to actively involve the police in the black community... because the racism issues did and still prevail in the police force. Here in lies the issue with this whole thread. You name it 'black crime' and have this as an opening statement: So what do you term to be a "general black crime problem"? Because those words and your argument throughout this thread tends to lean towards the false accusation that blacks tend to be criminal or violent. Operation Trident was started up to deal with an issue within the black community after the black community went public because all their complaints fell on deaf ears. Many of their complaints are still falling on deaf ears because the police force sometimes refuse to take their complaints or their concerns seriously. You say that the black community should be tackling low level crimes before it escalates. And you provided a link to show that they are... they are tackling it at a ground level amongst their youth. All the reports and the links you have provided say one thing in particular. That one of the major issues that face the black community and the crimes committed within that community are connected to the racism in the police force. That the police target the blacks because of their colour and they automatically think that the blacks will be the ones to commit the crimes. The report you gleefully linked to the gun violence issues in the UK does not speak of race or of 'black crime'. It does not even mention the level of gun violence (related to the drug and gang warfare that Trident deals with) within the black community. What it does mention however is that there has been a dramatic increase in violent crime in general mainly due to binge drinking. What you also fail to mention is that Operation Trident is but one part of the police crackdown on gun violence and I find that quite telling. We are now in 2005 Alex. Trident now works mostly on 'stop the guns' types of campaigns. It was set up to deal with gun violence after the representatives of black communities kept hounding the police with their concerns. And yet, even though they do deal mostly with gun related crimes and with the prevention of gun violence in these and other communities, they not once refer to it as 'black crime'. Instead it is 'gun crime'. And one of their main aims is to bolster confidence in these communities and to encourage these communities to report these crimes after it was finally realised that when they did come forward to report such crimes, most often they were ignored by a police force that did, and still does, suffer from racism within its ranks. Their hope was for the community to help them point out the gang lords and drug dealers. Don't you mean 'was set'? Again, we are in 2005. Why are you still reliving 2002? And a massive rise in shootings and murders because of gang violence? Alex, the massive rise in violence in general was seen to have been caused by binge drinking issues and drunkeness in general in 2002-2003. Maybe you should read your own links again. And I can see your attempt at scare mongering and frankly it is pitiful and only further goes to show the true intent of this thread of yours. It is more a hope that one reads and understands the reports that one keeps quoting. But was it "ambiguous"? You titled the thread "Black Crime"... I personally do not think that was ambiguous. You went on and on about the major issues of black crime and quoted several reports and sites, all of which deal principally with how the police should take care to not alienate the black community who step forward to report racial attacks against them (the black community) from not just other racial groups in the UK, but from the police force itself. The reports and links you provided all mainly discuss and criticise the police for their deeply held racist views towards the ethnic minorities and how racial crimes against these ethnic groups are being ignored or misshandled. And then you mention Operation Trident which works in conjunction with other campaigns to stopping gun violence and drug related gun crimes in general. And you label all of this "Black Crime".... And you continue throughout just about all of your post pin-point most gun crimes to blacks and you attempt to dramatise the issue through what can only be termed as scare tactics. Your words throughout this thread do go along the same silly type of arguments that a racist might use by saying "all blacks who wear hooded tops are criminals". Baron Max No Baron. It is deemed racist if the individual is investigated because they are black, and in most instances that is the case. Blacks often fall prey to laws that usually aren't applied if you aren't coloured... laws such as the ones that deal with loitering. A police officer sees 5 white men standing in the street, he/she will drive by with no second thoughts. 5 black men stand on a street and the officer will usually pull over and start 'chatting'. Such actions and 'investigations' is racist.
