Black Crime

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by alexb123, Aug 29, 2005.

  1. sniffy Banned Banned

    I think if you look at JBs previous posts (which do tend to contradict each other statistically) you'll read that the total black poulation is 12/13% so by my reckoning that means that black people are statistically more likely to be poor than any other group. Could you do a comparative calculation with poverty rates and crimes rates? I suspect that they will dovetail. But of course it isn't poverty that causes crime it's being black isn't it?
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  3. sniffy Banned Banned

    "Well, you must be one of few, then .....because no one does a fuckin' thing to stop it! And more importantly, I suppose, it's not even important enough for the news media to even mention it ....even when acting horrified at the few deaths caused by Katrina.

    Lots of people CLAIM to care, but how many really do? And is just saying that one cares enough?"
    Baron - genuinely good post!

    The situation in Africa (and the news media here do cover it sometimes albeit from a 'poor Africa' perspective) I believe is compounded by several factors:
    The arms industry. The latter (Russia, Britain and France in particular) make millions of rubels, ££££s and francs selling arms in Africa (and other regions where there are tensions) often to opposing sides! This really helps resolve conflict doesn't it?

    Africa is a beautiful country rich in natural and human resources. Unfortunately it is also at the mercy of extremes - disease, weather and infestations such as locust. Poor transport and storage infrastructure makes it harder for populations to 'ride out' these extremes. A Katrina type event happening every month/year for several months/years but without any federal or state support?

    Access to drugs and healthcare: Malaria, Aids, polio, measles, etc. Diseases all but eradicated in developed countries continue to ravage African populations. Drugs that we take for granted are blocked from entering Africa and counterfeit drugs find their way in in vast quantities (man's inhumanity to man writ large?). Thousands of qualified Health (and other) professionals emigrate to feed the insatiable demand from developed countries lured by better pay and conditions.

    oh and there is the poverty thing not to mention meddling from the West, corruption and unfair trade. Oh and the population is mostly black - could that be a factor in the media silence and the perceived lack of caring?
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2005
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  5. sniffy Banned Banned

    oh and JB you might want to scroll down to read the rest of the article you posted as a link about deaths from conflict in Africa.
    oh I keep forgetting guns don't kill people, people do...
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  7. CharonZ Registered Senior Member


    Poverty U.S. % of No. of % of
    Age, race, region, rate Population total U.S. poor poverty
    and family type (%) (000) population (000) population

    Under 18 21.8 70,020 26.8 15,289 40.2
    18 to 64 11.9 160,329 61.3 19,107 50.2
    65 and over 11.7 31,267 12.0 3,663 9.6
    Total 14.5 261,616 100.0 38,059 100.0

    White 11.7 216,460 82.7 25,379 66.7
    Black 30.6 33,353 12.7 10,196 26.8
    Hispanic \1\. 30.7 27,442 10.5 8,416 22.1

    Northeast 12.9 51,185 19.6 6,597 17.3
    Midwest 13.0 61,379 23.5 7,965 20.9
    South 16.1 91,717 35.1 14,729 38.7
    West 15.3 57,335 21.9 8,768 23.0
    Total 14.5 261,616 100.0 38,059 100.0

    Family type
    Unrelated individuals 21.5 38,538 14.7 8,287 21.8
    Families with children
    Female-headed 47.2 28,197 10.8 13,313 35.0
    Married-couple 9.5 110,648 42.3 10,485 27.5
    Other 24.5 5,407 2.1 13,253.5 22.5
    All other families 5.9 78,826 30.1 4,649 12.2

    Total 14.5 261,616 100.0 38,059 100.0

    \1\ Persons of Hispanic origin may be of any race.
    Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census (1996).
  8. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Ya' know, people keep throwing out this idea that poverty causes high crime rates, but is that actually what happens?

    And if poverty causes high rates of violent crime, then according to the implications, that should be true of all races. In some areas of the USA, the poverty rate is high, yet the crime rate is low ...a good example is southwestern Texas(I'd give the stats but don't know how to do it!). So how does one explain that? And that's not the only area.

    Northern Alaska, a predominately Aluet population, the poverty rate is high as hell, yet the violent crime rate is so low as to be almost non-existent. How can one explain that?

    I've mentioned before the low rate of violent crime in the poverty-stricken areas of Appalacia. How does one explain that ...if poverty CAUSES high rates of violent crime?

    I've read somewhere that poverty is high as hell in India and Bangladesh, yet the violent crime rate is low. If poverty causes high violent crime, then there should be a high violent crime rate ....but there isn't.

    Is this "poverty thing" just another excuse for high rates of violent crime by blacks?

    Baron Max
  9. sniffy Banned Banned

    Baron Max
    I think there is a correlation between urban poverty and crime rates - if you look at JBs and the last set of figures crime IS higher in urban areas.

    The areas you mention, I'm assuming/guessing as I've never been, are they rural or semi rural where populations are fairly sparse? Populations in these areas probably have access to land where at least they can grow healthy food. Perhaps they also get more exercise and fresher air? Extended family support networks, etc?

    In urban areas you not only have extremes of poverty and wealth existing side by side but also horrors such as drugs (including cheap cigarettes and alcohol), overcrowding, pollution, poor housing (high rise or high density), poor quality education and healthcare.

    To do a meaningful calculation on this you would have to compare populations to crime rates in both rural and urban areas. (And to add webliks you click on the icon with the earth with a paperclip under it).

    In the UK there is a definate trend for people to swap their lives in the city for a less stressful, healthier life in the country. This is only possible for those who have access to cash from the sale of city homes with high levels of equity because country properties are expensive. Many also have jobs or businesses that enable them to work from home.

    However even in rural areas in the Uk at least there are problems with crime - alcohol related usually in rural towns, youth crimes, spousal/family abuse, infanticide, etc.
  10. duendy Registered Senior Member

    yes meister b max...tis thread is called 'black crime'....but i am aying that this issue is in a MUCH larger context which seriously needs being made aware of. and tat is the utter inhuman subhuman system, that i know you defend to a dying that deeper context is obviously Unconscious for you. but is NOT for me. and when speakin of 'black crime' itMUST be made awar of--which i intend to always do--OTHERWISE we get the inevitable
    pseudobabble of 'genetics' and their inferiority in the black 'race' hence the crime..... a totally irrational, and nazi doctrine. already it isbeing proposed--and may even have started--the Stats idea to target black and ethnic children in poor areasso as to wage WAR against 'black crime'....shit. they are already doing similar wi teir, specially other poples poor kids, under the psedoscience of 'emtnal hygene' by calling children who dont fit in at school etc 'mentally ill', nd calling thgeir 'disorders' 'ADHD' etcetera
    THA shit is part of their violence against the individual. and to understand the disaffection amongstblack and ethnic people one MUST explore the 'white crime'.........This crime has destoyed many man mane livs. continues to do so. mims people for profit. poisons the very, is proficient in GENOCIDE and ECOCIDE.........

    so let us not forget all this when looking atthe effects of this oppression. an oppressive regims who manipulates conilct between people, andmaufactures the setting and set where black pople are kiloing each other in ghettos.....if you dont understand whats behind the scenes then you are completely a dupe..........they have got ya!.....
  11. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Well, not in India and Bangladesh! But, yes, I see your point, but it still doesn't explain how people are so quick to "blame" poverty for the high crime rates. And in fact, perhaps it's NOT poverty, but just too fuckin' many people per square foot!! But notice that the population density in India and Bangladesh is high as hell, yet the violent crime is not that high. So...?

    And interestingly, in small towns, everyone "knows" everyone else, so violent crime is very low to non-existent. As the town grows in population, does the violent crime grow? And if so, is that because of density of population ...instead of poverty? And is this same factor the same in, say, Africa? Is the crime rate low in "Podunk, Africa", yet high as hell in Nairobi where the density is high as hell, too?

    Are there any towns/cities in the USA where the poverty level is high AND where the density is high AND that has few or no blacks? If so, then we should be making a comparison of those towns/cities, rather than just talking about the big city ghetto crime rates and jumping immediately to the conclusion that poverty causes violent crime. See what I mean?

    Yeah, sure ...but aren't we talking about VIOLENT crimes like murder and rape and violent assault and such? I don't know about you, but that's what I've been focusing on, not the itsy-bitsy stuff.

    Baron Max
  12. J.B Banned Banned

    Does it really matter why blacks commit crime at such high rates?

    The fact is they do, and untill you guys on here who are crying about how sorry you feel for blacks get there crime problem solved, I am going to warn people all I can about this problem.

    Is that O.K?
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    It's okay by me, J.B. The problem is not going to go away by ignoring it ....the authorities have been trying to do that for decades now and it's done no good at all. They have, however, been able to get some people to accuse anyone who mentions it of "racism", but that's about all. But, then, isn't that also just another way of trying to ignore the issue?

    Baron Max
  14. Cottontop3000 Death Beckoned Registered Senior Member

    Bowel Movement, JEB, and other racists, your day is past. Live or die, your day is past. Doesn't that hurt just a little?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

  15. sniffy Banned Banned

    Oh but in these rural areas there are violent crimes. Shockingly violent. What category does gang rape of a 13 year old (by 14 her "classmates") fall into?Infanticide? Double murder? People do get murdered and there is violence in rural areas.

    Violent crime is not attributable to one factor. It is entirely racist to say that violent crime is only committed by black people and just an excuse to continue years of persecution. And how convenient to blame one group of people for all ills. To tackle crime we need to take a good hard look at society and see what the trigger factors are. But I don't believe violence will ever be eradicated where exteme inequalities exist. And then there's 'human nature' to contend with.

    Examples of recent crimes in the UK. All "white":

    What makes a teenager murder two boys?
    Why does a husband beat his wife to death?
    Why would a mother murder her own child?
    Why does a doctor murder 200 of his own patients?
    Would would two employees murder their employer and his family?

    What causes crime? Answers on another thread please.
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Duendy: Lucy snow.....white?

    you are full of it....words!

    And what difference would my race make to you? Are you racist? I thought you had joined Sniffy in "we are all human beings"? Its my ideas you are dealing with asshole. At least I am not full of shit! You have nothing to contribute except your stupidity.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2005
  17. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Sniffy: First of all Lucy I have stated on several occasions that my objection to this thread called 'Black Crime' and the other variations on a theme that regularly pop up on this 'sciforum' is the placing of the USA's crime problems entirely at the feet of black people with a few hispanics thrown in for good measure.

    Well one can say threads like this pop up because there is a significant amount of bias in the world...sciforums included. I think stats can be used for and against any particular argument which is why the banter can go on forever and as someone has written DOES IT REALLY MATTER!!! If it is true that there is more crime in afro american communitites what to do? If it is not true how to change the perception? You see the arguments never deal with viable solutions and I would wonder how as individuals any one of us really contributes to these said problems. This is why I called you an idealist, it is a judgement given anytime I suspect anyone of seeing a desired outcome devoid of viable solutions. Racism/discrimination of all kinds are global issues not simply inner-city vs rural or black and white or even American. England as well as elsewhere are not without its divisions.

    Sniffy: This is not a thread about segregation! The suggestion of segregation to solve this 'problem' came from the baron - it is his solution to all perceived ills.

    I don't think he is saying it will solve all social ills within any community. What I think he is saying is desegregation in the US may have done more harm than good because in some strange way the outcome has created a culture of dependency within african american communitites. Now obviously this isn't true for all african americans but it is true for those who are waiting for something to come from outside and fix it.
    Even in this thread there are those speaking in terms of "how can we help blacks?'" The assumption being that they are in need of help because they cannot help themselves. I find this attitude abnoxious and not helpful. We in the West even have this attitude towards 'third world nations' in terms of development. Its insulting. We have to develop them. They cannot control their economies (world bank) they cannot control their resources, they need 'us' to do this for 'them'. Now considering colonialism and imperialism from the past what makes the west think that it could ever have 'their' best interests at heart (I'm thinking of the congo right now)? ESPECIALLY WHEN THE ARGUMENT IS THAT WESTERN INSTITUTIONS ARE FUNDAMENTALLY RACIST AND CLASSIST!!

    sniffy: no-one here seems to be prepared to admit it, yet we have seen it close up and personal thanks to Katrina, that America is already segregated along ethnic and 'racial' lines, always has been and probably always will be.

    Yes that is basically true. Much of it is choice, much of it is economic.

    Sniffy: How good of the Danes to allow all those immigrants in to do their menial tasks for them. I guess now that they want better jobs for more pay the Danes are not too happy and wish to send them all back! This whiteycentric arrogance is so typical! And you dare to call me a 'liberal'!

    Well your ideas are liberal and so is Danish politics, social welfare system and cultural outlook. What you don't seem to see is that in a homogenized, clanish society like Denmark with a population of 5 million and no history of multiculturalism 100,000 immigrants carrying a culture so different and that they don't understand will create fear and hostility within the society. I am not saying this is good, I am saying this is natural. Its a transition within their culture. How they will work this out in the future I don't know. Do I think Danes are basically racist? No. Do I think that the number of immigrants they cannot assimilate will create racism? Yes and it already has.
    They have a vietnamese population that has somewhat carefully assimilated itself within Danish society and so are not seen as a threat. They also have a small African popultion that they don't complain about except for the Somalians they blame for much crime in their citites. They have a problem with their muslim populations which is sizable and have had difficulties assimulating into Danish society (and why not? They both carry very different values). The problem in Danish society is that they dont understand why their muslim populations dont integrate and become more like them. My argument is why should they? But Denmark is not the States nor England and will have to come up with its own understanding and solutions.

    Sniffy: And there you go again with the assumption that all black people rely on handouts - news they don't.

    I never said they did but I do know that the cry of racism and accounting for all woes based on ones blackness is self-defeating. There are more white people on welfare than blacks but if one looks at the % of blacks on welfare compared to whites the numbers are higher.

    Sniffy: Also, do black people control the importation of drugs, the building of decent and affordable housing, the gun laws and supply of illegal guns (99% are leftovers from Americas imperial wars)? Fair frigging trade for African farmers? I didn't think so. Despite all this do they continue to pay their taxes? Hell yes!

    You are throwing a hole bunch of things together so my answer is no, they have,no, no and finally then they should expect more from their public officials...everyone else did. The lack of control is part of this culture of dependency I am referring to. As long as one decides they are powerless one cannot control anything. As long as one decides it is up to 'systems' and 'society' there will be very little change. The US is basically the land of self-sufficiency which is why their social welfare programs are so meager. This will not change anytime soon so people need to get pro-active within their own communities poor or not.As far as stereotyping the afro american community they do it to themselves by projecting gangsta posturing culture as somehow 'cool' and 'keeping it real' no other culture puts out so much violence and crime in their music, and justify or package it as a viable 'culture', it is the of legitimizing criminality and mysogeny and then passing it on to a future generation. Then people get upset if its assumed black people are more prone to crime. Why represent that as opposed to any other image? The Harlem renaissance was magic and they were poor, middle and rich blacks living together, creating art, music, a full rich cultural ambiance at a time when racism was at its height. What happened? Did the civil rights movement help these communities develop in a healthy way? Not really. I am saying that the way blacks feel about themselves and their communities is way more important than how whites see them. The focus is off, it isn't internal but has been externalized and manifests itself as 'if you see me then I exist'. I think this is more dangerous.

    Sniffy: So if you want all these new black owned businesses and self help projects (suggest you look closer they are there already)

    Not enough I'm afraid and much of the time they move out of black neighborhoods and take their business elsewhere leaving the poor behind. Abandoning their own.

    Sniffy: perhaps all the black people that have contributed their taxes, labour, blood, sweat and tears to the building of America and most of the countries in the G8 could have a refund?

    But that won't happen so why bring it up?

    Sniffy: As for Live 8? Please don't insult me. It didn't even figure on my radar.

    (laughs) Good! I was beginning to worry.

    Sniffy: Isolating communities or segregating them or allowing them to segregate themselves 'voluntarily' just who is going to oversee that (note my choice of word here) project?

    Its not a project and no one has to 'do' anything. Most of these neighorhoods are already segregated mostly because people prefer to live among their own. Fair enough. But remember busing? Perhaps you haven't heard of it. Well for a long time it was thought that it would help poor black people who had poor schools in their neighborhood to be bused into white neighborhoods. That somehow this will lead to racial harmony. There were all sorts of problems with this of course, white middle class parents didn't want their classrooms getting larger with kids whom they probably found suspect due to their own strereotypes. Some in Harlem started their own schools which are quite successful. Why bus them out? Here is a very good link about the busing situation as it occurred in Richmond (NY was a little different)

    In Boston:

    "Indeed, whites were not the only Bostonians choking on it. Polls taken during the early days of busing show that only bare majorities of blacks favored the policy. In 1971, when the district tried to redraw attendance zones to encourage integration, a group of black parents protested that it would force their kids out of a good neighborhood school. Leo Conway, the principal of an all-black elementary school in Roxbury popular with parents and students, wrote to Garrity to save his school from being closed under the Master Plan and to complain "that the burden of desegregation has been too long placed on the back of the Roxbury and Jamaica Plain community." In the South End, parents at the Bancroft Elementary School, which had integrated voluntarily, also wrote to Garrity to keep their kids in their neighborhood school. In fact, only days before Garrity’s decision, black legislators had been pushing for more community control over the schools, not busing."

    Link: A very good piece

    In Seattle:

    Sniffy: Those communities that are already voluntarily segregated - do they still have a crime problem or has it magically gone away?

    Segregation isn't a 'crime' solver, there will always be crime. In fact there is more black on black crime than black on white crime. Segregation does require though a certain degree of self-sufficiency and autonomy. In NY for example many black neighborhoods DO NOT run the businesses in their neighborhoods. They are run by other ethnicities who don't even live in the neighborhood so where do black dollars go?

    Sniffy: Could you all please form an orderly queue to the promised land cos I have a dream.....

    So did King but as Malcolm commented on that statement "it was only a dream".

    Perhaps we should ask if racism/ discrimination in all its varied forms isnt just a factor of the human condition we will never be rid of.

    Anyway we are not the only ones having this discussion since Katrina:

    An excerpt:

    "...what is the difference between the Vietnamese who had lost everything, and the others of new orleans who wondered why no one was there to rescue them. the ones who raped, looted, and shot at rescuers. those who cursed the government for not taking care of them fast enough? culture.

    we have created in this country, a culture of dependency. rich or poor, we expect the government to be there to meet our needs. how very European of us, and how very stupid. how did this happen? there are probably a million components to a culture of dependency, but there is one that stands out to me more than others. it is this: we have politicians and public figures who lose their jobs and popularity if they can't convince others to be dependent on the government.";sid=2005/9/8/05947/35289

    Here is a bit of Harlem's history if you are interested in the 1920's. Its about the THRIVING afro american community, migration, self-sufficiency, culture and of course racism. Its called "The Promised Land". It also breaks the myth that blacks have never controlled housing development.

    "At first, whites did not notice. However, when Negroes spread
    west of Lenox Avenue, white resistance stiffened. The local
    residents formed a corporation to purchase the buildings
    inhabited by Negroes and to evict them. In turn, the Negroes
    responded by forming the Afro-American Realty Company, and they
    too bought out apartment buildings, evicted the white tenants,
    and rented the apartments to Negroes. White residents then put
    pressure on lending institutions not to provide mortgages to
    prospective Negro buyers. When one was able to buy a piece of
    property, regardless of how prosperous or orderly he might
    appear, local whites viewed it as an invasion, panicked, and
    moved out in droves. This left the banks, still unwilling to sell
    to Negroes, holding a large number of deserted properties.
    Eventually, they were compelled to sell these properties at
    deflated prices. During and immediately after the First World
    War, Negroes poured into Harlem, obtained high-paying jobs, and
    purchased their own real estate. Johnson believed that Harlem
    Negroes owned at least sixty million dollars worth of property,
    and this, he believed,would prevent the neighborhood from
    "degenerating into a slum."

    I believe in the strength of black people not in their lack. Black people who play the victim card are useless. Black people who fight back by taking control of their own communities are the backbone of change and prosperity...but only if they are willing to tackle the obstacles and not rely on white america to do it for them because they won't its not in their interest. Anymore than its in the interest of the West to aid developing nations without the yoke of dependency. A good book to read in Lords of Poverty by Graham Hancock. It shows how the business of aid and global development is to keep the business running (UN and many NGO's), in other words eradicating poverty, war, disease etc, etc, etc, IS NOT THEIR INTENTION. Their intention is to keep themselves in business. How do they do that? By keeping people needy and fostering the illusion of their own dependence.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2005
  18. duendy Registered Senior Member

    well you ARE full of scatalogical terms aren't you girrrrrlfriend. or should tat be grrrrrrrirlfriend?

    listen. i have waded through your diatribe to sniffy.......most of it iw patronizing. typica of te white-lady'who'knows'whats what for blacd people---ie., jack shite

    one bit i cant ignore. and it is TYPICASL of how you apologists for fascism operate....where you claim that the black people suffering in te Louisianna floods were shooting at rescuers, looting...and had the sheer nerve to want to be helped. which you call 'dependency'......shame on you arsehole

    you know nothing. you have absolutely fukin nuthing about wht is really kickin off. about the new world order etc
    if i had your personal email i would send you stuff that would inform you just how utterly disgustingly the poor survivors--those not left to float stinkin dead that is--have been/are being treated by the military gun totin 'helpers'

    you ar so full of words you will never learn .....!
  19. J.B Banned Banned

    Nice work Lucy,
    So much eye opening realistic information.

  20. Cottontop3000 Death Beckoned Registered Senior Member

    Sounds more like bullshit to me Lucy.
  21. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Good post, Lucy, thanks,

    Baron Max
  22. Cottontop3000 Death Beckoned Registered Senior Member

    I swear you guys would believe anything thrown at you as long as it even remotely "supports" your prejudices and bias.
  23. glenn239 Registered Senior Member

    If you allow a certain degree of latitude when pondering the question, you might stumble across a possible positive correlative.

    Changes in skin pigmentation reflect a method by which we have adjusted to the diffusion in the intensity of sunlight as humanity moved north from the equator towards the Artic Circle. In evolutionary terms then "white" might mean something along the lines of "north" and "black" is more akin to an equatorial geographic origin.

    The observation relatively meaningless - we don't have the technology or sufficient understanding of neurological biology to answer the questions posed by this thread. But, it must also be pointed out, in real terms the climatic conditions in which our various ancestors lived are known, and varied wildly. While I'm no geologist I am under the impression that more northerly climes were subjected to far harsher living conditions than southerly ones during the Ice Age.

    I'm not a big fan of speculative causation if it leads to discrimination, but if there is anything biological going on, it probably is linked to the differences in survival strategies inherent to different climates over the course of thousands of years.

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