Black Americans should be pissed!

Discussion in 'History' started by thefountainhed, Aug 20, 2004.

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  1. thefountainhed Fully Realized Valued Senior Member

    If you mean other countries, yes. The benefits however do not exceed that of a full time employee at a minimum wage workplace. The SIGNIFCANT part though is that said benefits and wages are pathetic, and that most shouldn't have to depend on them.
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  3. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    I disagree. I think that shows its time to end the affirmative action perks for "black america". I dont think White America owes Black America anything other than equal access, which has been provided as far as I am concerned. Just how long before Black America figures all things being equal (via SAT scores) let the best man win (so to speak). How long do we have to accomodate Black America via entry perks based on race?

    Statistically two parent familys provide more opportunity for their children than one parent familes irrespective of race. With the historic trend in Black familiess of being more and more single parent families, it just follows that the income per family would be lower and that would result in Black America having a higher rate of poverty. As the stats show along with corp. am. fleeing the city and country (addressed further down).

    I didnt miss your point. After all, I posted a link showing how minority in government numbers are changing. Contrary to what you implied. And until Black America can offer up a worthy presidential candidate get used to the fact no one will vote for "Louis Farrakhan" types, or "Al Sharpton" types. I wont vote for a president to make "Black America" feel better. I have a greater responsiblity for what is good for the country as a whole.

    As far as "blacks slavish mentality", seek a therapists help.

    If Black America doesnt have role models thats not White Americas fault. Look within the black community for answers to that.

    Yes, and combined with the lack of education within "Black America" it is a perfect example of cause and effect. Its all related. But take heart! In the 90s Black America achieved an 80%+ high school graduation rate, the highest recorded so far! Twenty years from now (or less) you should see an impact there in the economic statistics. Such is life! The graduation rates are reflective of the real issue. If Black America numbers as a whole are 12% of the total population, and you have almost 20% drop out rate, you shouldnt expect to amount to great numbers in the other areas of societal sucess. I mean come on, why should the rest of the rates reflect anything else. If all things are equal, shouldnt college attendance rates reflect all the above and below mentioned factors? They should, but they dont.

    Heres the numbers as best as I could get. Black America = 12% of the population. Of this number, between 80 and 83% of their children graduate high school. Of this number, approximatly 50% enroll in college. Of this number approximatly 14.5% graduate college.

    White America = 69% of the population. Of this number, around 90% of their children graduate high school. Of this number approximatly 63% enroll in college. Of this number approximatly 29+% graduate college.

    Simply put, it just follows that white america as a whole will do better than black america as a whole. And these are numbers from the mid 90s. I dont see why we should continue with programs based on race. Why not focus on ability?

    More on this to follow below under corp america fleeing the cities.

    Clinically? or just generally in the "oh so lighthearted" definition of insane? You did not address the "what is irrational about finding affirmative action to be unfair?"

    I thought most cities in america are predominantly white being as most of america is white. Do you have the links to this claim about cities and race? Or did you mean as a whole Black America is predominantly in the city. I did a quick search and couldnt find much.

    And another point of that. Who are you to complain about where people chose live. This is another thing that bugs me to no end. My family moved out of the city to the country to give us (their kids) a better life. This was a white community we fled in the late 60s. This was something alot of people did just because it was simply for a better life and will continue to do so.

    So you are denying that the textile industry moved offshore? That had a huge impact on the southern states. The electronics industry moving to Asia and Japan? Let me guess.... You werent even born then. How about this for closer to home. Detroit and GM moving to mexico? Additionally those low end jobs that went to china impacted the least educated among the whole country. Of course there is the additional factor of the huge number of women who entered the workforce since the 70s, competing with Black America for jobs. Are you so "ignorant" on the workforce in america?

    Unemployment rates of recent high school graduates not enrolled in college, by race (percent):
    Year ... Black ... White
    1989 ... 24.5 ... 12.1
    1990 ... 35.8 ... 14.8
    1991 ... 51.8 ... 20.6
    1992 ... 39.3 ... 13.5
    1993 ... 34.5 ... 20.1
    1994 ... 50.7 ... 11.4

    If black america is predominantly in the cities as you claim, it would follow that their unemployment rate is higher being as the jobs that used to employ them have moved either out of the city or out of the country.

    As far as most revenue streams in city governments coming from taxed businesses, maybe that is why business bailed out of cities. Its all about profits. That is what occured in the rural area I grew up in. Small factories opened up simply because they got cheap labor, cheap taxes and lots of room to expand with limited gov. reg. interferance. Plus the better transportation access. You know, the freeways system that was a huge government expendature that is still being expanded to accomdate the change in regional lifestyles and population growth?

    Thats what happened to my dad in the 80s. His company shut down in our state and moved to a neighboring state. Cheap taxes, cheap labor... blah blah blah. But it most surely was not about race.

    One of the things my economics teachers covered was corp. am. and its lack of loyalty to their workers. It was a trend started in the 70s and impacted all labor, not just Black America. Just ask those people looking for jobs since HP (and other tech companies) moved its help offshore to India, for a very recent example. And its not just tech companies. State gov. is moving data offshore too. Hospitals too. Credit card/financial companies too. This list of employers grows each quarter. Further isolating the less educated from employment.

    And I dont think its fair that Black America is given an advantage based soley on skin color for college access. I think Black America should have to compete via test scores alone. I think these issues (mind set) in Black America fall on Black Americas shoulders.

    Ok. Pretend your an employer now. You want to make money. The most money you can. Two people come for a job in your business. The business is a car repair service. One white, one black. Both have equal job qualifications. You have one job opening. Who do you hire? I will assume you would hire the black man. I havent any problem with that. I do have a problem with people screaming racism when the white employer hires the white applicant, under the same condition. Why should a Black person be given preference due to skin color over a White?

    And that works both ways. White America has its right to rant about the unfairness that their kids are being denied placements in college based on race rather than ability. Why if all things being equal, the black student gets the placement or the school gets sued? But thats not what you want is it? You want preferential treatment for Black America rather than equality. Of course, all things dont have to be equal for the black student to be placed over the white student. Isnt it michigan that applies up to 100 points based on race? How about 1 point? That would be a more "all things being equal" determination.

    For me, I was all for affirmative action until I started seeing broadcasts about how its been applied. I wanted equal not preferential treatment. I want the best students to get their chances along with their equals. Time to toss the preferential treatment based on skin color. I see no reason for it to continue.

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  5. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    Why must steps be taken to help poor black people? Why not help poor people? Whether you realize this or not, this is racism. There is no reason for you to say:
    "this group gets funding because they are black and their parents had a tough life, but this group does not because they are not black even though their parents also had a tough life."
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  7. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    I'm not sure... I think affirmative action is still needed to compensate for current racism. That said, it is implemented poorly. The whole DBE (minortity/women owned businesses) thing is a government contract sham. From my experence the DBEs we generally have to pay are not very good (although there are exceptions). They realize that you need to meet a certain quota and know you can't easily get rid of them.
  8. super rights.? explain? BTW, what makes you think blacks have super rights? whatever they are?
  9. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    He is probably refering to reverse racism
  10. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    indeed, I am
  11. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

    In Urban areas? yes, very much so.

    That is true


    I have observed this and have much to say about it, but you pinned it nicely later in your post (more on that later)

    Thing of the past.

    Also, the past.

    Because he is uneducated to begin with.

    Agreed. Mexicans and Latinos included.

    This, for me, sums it all up right here. What do I mean?

    After spending 6 years of my public education in predominantly black schools I have, time and time again, noticed that failed black students and failed black men/women are products of self-fulfilling prophesies.

    The sad part is that so many of these challenged black kids in the school system who never seem to pass the D+ mark really believe that only a "gangsta" life awaits them out of the high school. Be it weak morals rampant in the family or the constant realization of life's back breaking challenges which causes these young black males to look for the easy allure and easy cash of drug dealing, petty crimes. Time and time again I have noticed that simply no one was there to guide these young men in their time of need. That frustrastion of low grades and money troubles only built anger in these guys around me and they just stopped showing up all together to classes or sold drugs outside of the school. I guess in time of dire needs, no one sees the hard way out as the prudent solution.

    I keep noticing a vicious cycle of underestimation. After being placed in special ed classes for low marks the minority students lose hope in their ability, and actually believe that only a life of crime or harsh labor awaits them.....and in this system of thinking they stopped trying eventually leading them into what they predicted. The problem isn't stemming from one part but actually each institution is slowly feeding the beast.

    The public on the whole isn't ready for a black president. As open and liberal U.S may be becoming I doubt the majority of the white population will accept a black person as their president....for a race that they held under the iron fist to outdo them in their own turf would be an insult I guess.

    But as we learned from Florida: even if the majority chooses a black person that does not mean he/she will be appointed. Racism and government aren't mutually exclusive.

    See my problem is that so much self doubt, underestimation adds a lot to the equation. A lot of the social problems for the black man begins at home.

    1) Fear of success - How many times, jokingly, have you seen Colin Powell, Condolleza Rice, Bryant Gumbel, Wayne Brady etc etc reffered to as white people? Why is it that if a black figure in public acts educated, and well read he/she is laughed at by their own culture? My friend, a former troubled black man, is laughed at by friends or outright mocked at in his neighborhood for attending an art school because he is gifted, he has been called a fag for being all "artsy, fartsy". Black community, time and time again, displays this wide spread fear of success. When one black person gets ahead, he/she is mocked by so many for working hard at it and called "white" often....which leads me to. There is no unity or driving force to make others work harder to become like that one rich black man.

    2) Foolish pride - The second biggest hinderence i've noticed in black students (especially males) is the overriding sense of machismo. There is no denying that being a "man" in the black community is very important for the male....but what real "man" are these young kids looking up to? Rappers? 50 cent, however talented maybe, isn't spreading any good message and you can't deny hed that kids looks up to him, they really do. Tupac, as talented as he was, what was his message really all about? When you rap about having a life no other than the one of crime and hardships what hope do you really give people? If a black male has reached that stage of influence on other black youth and if he does try to do it for the better...again, he gets laughed at. This foolish pride is in so many of the kids today.

    So much of this negativity is adopted as the only way of life...why?

    ...and these dynamics are maladaptive to the black community. To be taken seriously they have to look past the troubles of present and so many have to stop feeding the sterotype monster that plagues every black man at a job interview. I won't lie to you hed...when I see a group of black guys my age walking towards me I worry, not because I am conditioned, but because over the course of my years here I have had way too many bad experiences with black people than i'd liked to have. Does that deter my opinion? no, but it helps to shape it.

    Too many black males are in prison and too many embrace this life of easy money and crime...all because no one told this kid he had a brain when he was young, all because no one told this kid that he didn't have to go all out to prove he is a man. You have to admit hed these sterotypes came from somewhere and I don't know whether the black youth today embraces these sterotypes, don't realize that they fit them to a t, or realize they exist and get angry over them so they lash out casuing only to feed them further.

    ...but everytime I see a group of black students bum rush a subway car and rudely disrupt everyone and being outright insolent I only get mad for the moment, but that older white dude next to me who holds a good job and is in power to make influential decision won't be like me....just like that cop, or that judge, or that employer, or that parole officer, or that narcotics agent.

    Beaurocracy institutions sacrifice fairness for efficency so when 3 bad apples ruin it for the 30 good ones sterotypes will be made. It is up to that stuggling young man to keep fighting the image or join the rest in prison.

    But on many accounts you are right hed. The problem begins at home but only gets feed by every factor which overlooks the obvious. The failed black man of today is a failed by society....but I can't help but keep finding that because that man never believed in himself to begin with. He was never told that he could have better than his parents...and this isn't exclusive to blacks either. Look at Puerto Ricans, Mexicans hell even my people. Minorities raise their kids to be hard working, blue collar people and the real whites in power would have it no other way.
  12. Affirmative action sucks it causes a lot of problems, but at least it tries to reverse the devastation that was imposed on African Americans. They are still treated as second class citizens. They have a greater chance of going to prison across all income levels than any other group. They have a harder time getting apartments and other living accommodations. Something has to be done to reverse this trend. It is being attacked with education but until it is reversed affirmative action is a band-aid.
  13. StarOfEight A Man of Taste and Decency Registered Senior Member

    This may have been dealt with before, but you want White Entertainment Television? Really? Okay ... turn on NBC. Shit, look at Friends and Seinfield. Two shows ostensibly set in New York, one of the most diverse cities in the world, and out of ten cast members (Jerry, Elaine, George, Kramer, Joey, Chandler, Ross, Rachel, Monica, and Phoebe) ... all white.

    And a quick note to the Fountainhed ... I'm not sure, but I'd imagine American Indians are poorer and less educated than blacks.
  14. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    ..and probably not so frequently shown in tv shows as africans

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  15. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

    See this is what I mentioned in my other post. The sterotypes have to come from somewhere. A lot of the social problems that black people suffer can be helped with social change among the black community itself, but sadly so many accept this negative outlook as a way of life. Some can't help but too many don't want to help it.
  16. thefountainhed Fully Realized Valued Senior Member

    Sarge, I will respond to your post-- but I gotta catch up elsewhere
  17. thefountainhed Fully Realized Valued Senior Member

    You are myopic in worldview. The gap is closing, but clearly it is still incredible wide. I'm unsure as to how you define "equal access", for if your educational facilities are unequal, if your access to healthcare is unequal, if access to fairness in the judicial system is unequal, etc you cannot have equal access. All things being equal-- which is often not the case-- the minority: woman, black, ought to get picked.

    You are clearly unable to read the graphs and draw conclusions that follow from the evidence given. Blacks and Latinos represent more than 25% of the poor. The poverty rates amongst African Americans were 55% prior to 1960, or the civil rights. The rates dropped to about 30% and then lingered for a while before dropping to the current 25%. By your argument, if the increasing rates of female-headed families were having such a drastic change on the statistical presentation of poverty rates in blacks, then this number ought to increase. It is not.

    What the fuck are you talking about? Most black representatives in government come from black dominated sectors. What the hell exactly do you mean by "Al Sharpton" types? In what way is Sharpton any worse than president Bush? Your incapacity to understand the very same prejudice that strains your vision is bloody annoying. To the typical Black, Sharpton isn't a bloody clown in a suit. Your problem with Sharpton is that he is "too Black". If he spoke with a Midwestern accent, was not too blunt or outspoken, had well cropped hair, or simply fit better with the image of white America, didn't hold some of the views he does hold, he'd seem proper to you. Put the mind and

    gregariousness of Sharpton or a Jesse Jackson in Gore and he's president of the US. At issue is that you yourself are riddled with certain subtle prejudices you couldn't even begin to understand.

    What a stupid statement

    Another stupid statement. You have taken my argument out of context and not addressed the connection to women.

    Which is why the black community does in fact share in blame, as I have already mentioned. Still, a large proportion of those who do graduate are coming from schools that are badly funded and badly operated. A self perpetuating mess...

    16% graduate, not 14.5

    Even going from such a purely statistical standpoint, your argument is moot because the reflection in income disparity does not follow from the disproportional in education. Do you suggest that college and high school drop out rates are due to some innate ability? Are you bloody insane? It is a cultural issue that is evidenced by the performance of Asians, immigrants, affluent blacks, etc. The issue is the more affluent the black, the more likely he will graduate high school and college. If we allow a culture where those that manage to finish high schools/colleges are still punished by an environment that is already unfair to them, we do nothing but prolong the problem.

    You have not rationally explained its unfairness.

    I meant major cities, and here:

    There was a better site that I now cannot find. Maybe later.

    What a bunch of crap. The "white flight" of the big cities is not some bloody unknown you can crown with a simple life example as proof of its nonoccurrence.

    You are clearly a master of using stats incorrectly. If Whites moved to the suburbs of these big cities as a result of lost work, then why do they still work in the cities? Moving to the suburbs is not an economic decision. Look at the link above.

    No it would not follow because their White counterparts ought to be subjected to the same loss in jobs. Besides, when I refer to jobs moving to the suburbs, I mean small business and the like.

    It is a part, but not the major part. Besides, look above.

    You do not open your eyes to the full picture. Their situation is not entirely the fault of blacks. The environment contributes to their depravity and therefore owns part of the responsibility in alleviating their strife. And you talk as if discrimination does not occur in the university system for the wealthy of this nation.

    Who screams discrimination if the White employer hires the white person? There is discrimination if he always hires the white person.

    You talk out of your ass. If a black student from Compton has 1340 on his SAT, and a bunch of great recommendations, a 4.0 GPA, and he's competing with a white student from an affluent background who has a 1400 on their SAT's, you damn well better know I will pick the black student. You will want us to forget that the black had to do more with less. Even worse, you'd like that your alumnus status allow your kid preference, but that we all shut up, that your donations allow your kids preference but all shut up, that the institutional discrimination that has been the norm of the best institutions remain whilst we all shut up and bitch instead about affirmative action.
  18. s0meguy Worship me or suffer eternally Valued Senior Member

    So You(thefountainhed) call it their brethern. Whatabout white people. Do you call them their(your?) brethern? They're all people after all, a race of animals.

    Let's face the fact that black people and those that try to takeover black culture tend to be offensive at low age. Sure, white people also, but I've seen the black people do it alot more then white people. I live in the Netherlands. The major cities here have huge criminality 90% from black people and people that tend to take over black culture.

    But when they grow up most of them turn into nice people.

    You can't blame white people for the suffering of black people in the history. It's just a skin collor. When America was discovered large quantities of criminals were sent there and wealthy greedy traders came and traded slaves, the rest you probably know. Those damn pussys from europe came and ruined the continent.

    After the slaves were freed they just wanted to live in harmony and peace. Other people were afraid of them. But they did nothing. I would've like to see the black people take revenge for all the suffering they were in. That's exactly the same as I would think when most of them were white slaves.

    People slaughtered people alot. Hell, I bet white people were slaughtered alot more then white people slaughtered black people. And there were alot more of white slaves in history then black slaves. Does this mean that white people should hate white people?

    We should all live in harmony with the past(is there any use in making yourself angry about the past?) and think of the future. But obviously alot of people can't do that. Those people are ignorant.
  19. duendy Registered Senior Member

    oh here we go...yu say blak youth are more prone to badness than whiteyouth...?...and so the story goes. you have to look at the context of when black youths seem more rebellious. put the white youth in their position. when all images on TV is white white white....wehn they may gey funny looks, and hostile looks, and not get picked for jobs, treated disrespectuflly at schools cause teach stereotypes them, etc etc etc

    once say on the Ophra Winfrey whow these black lads go donwtone shopping, and there was a secret camera. every shop they went in, innocently looking for clothes, you say huddled cliques of white shop staff lookin at them funny, never takin their eyes offa them, generally making them feel like shit

    you saw them call for taxis and taxis not stopping. sutuff like that

    wouldn't YOu get pissed off with that fukin shitty prejudice day after day after day?
  20. s0meguy Worship me or suffer eternally Valued Senior Member

    It's an endless cycle and I would make it stop if I could. I feel bad for the innocent ones.

    They create a bad image for themselfes, other people take precaution like not hire them for jobs, they become angry and that way it goes on and on.

    I do not live in America so I can't say much about the stance to black people in America. But outhere they get respected like the people that they are, and I do not take any prejudice even though a close girlfriend got raped by a group of them guys saying "we have the right to have sex". The only time I ever beat somebody up was when this black guy(rather wannabee) on school said that it was "good for her". But I'm over all that now and I've learned alot.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2004
  21. duendy Registered Senior Member

    Hey some0guy.......yeah, we HAVe to get over scapegoating. as you know even with 'whites' there are major divisions, Irish versus English, Protestant vesus Catholic,
    im-mobile hwite family against white-looking mobile Gypsies, etc etc etc ooh yeah, rich versus poor, and working calss versus middle class

    iall these conflicts the central thing to look at is HURT. WHO is hurting, and why?

    we are ALL humans with FEELINGS. when these feelings get battered we can get bitter, and sometimes very viscious. a dog that's been constantly mistreated over a period will get very distrusting of humans, and other dogs and become very viscious. liable to snap at any time, even when someone innocently goes to stroke it...even children

    where we differ is in our complex use of language. our whole culture is obsesse by lingo,a nd it is used to dominate, and manipulate i may ways. to gther with language we must add--and this is incredible important to understand for what we are discussing--BODY language. thus yo have people saying one thing, and body language saying another. all really confusing, and when used in a cruel way is devastating to people who feel outcasts.

    i am not saying lets go and make friends with gangsters. but we HAVe to explore how that mindset arises. why do we accept a culture that breeds gangsterism? cause we are really afraid?
  22. s0meguy Worship me or suffer eternally Valued Senior Member

    gangsterism? that isn't very common here. The problem in America is the government if you ask me. For example the education standards in most of America are nothing compared to west-European standards.

    All we have to do is forgive eachother and we can live in peace

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    Unfortunatly this will never work out.

    Why fight for a conflict that happened so many years ago?
  23. Working Class Hero Skank Monster Registered Senior Member

    The problem isnt race, its class. The black people have higher unemployment because theyre predominantly underclass and working class. I suppose race is a factor, but not the only one by a wide margin.

    You could almost say that authorities use race instead of class, because criticism of differential income and class would be a strike at the very heart of capitalism's values. You can bet Martin Luther King wouldve achieved very little if he was fighting for and end to wage slavery and equal rights.
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