Bipolar, Schizoaffective, BPD (Ect)... Can the General Population Trust These People?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by PHPlatonica, Apr 4, 2006.


Can The General Pop Trust these Individuals?

Poll closed Apr 24, 2006.
  1. Of course Not

    0 vote(s)
  2. Not with Most things

    2 vote(s)
  3. Not with Important Issues

    3 vote(s)
  4. Yes

    6 vote(s)
  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    I am sorry to hear that you are travelling rough at the moment. I understand that you are attempting to deal with the difficult reality of your predicament.

    Is it possible however for you to delay or postpone your decision to depart this reality until after your children pass their 18th birthday?
    Is it possible that you could focus on these future dates to grant you a purpose to your suffering?

    Is it possible to give your self a reason to endure?

    For what I see is a person who can see no purpose in her sufference and possibly if she can see a reason for her suffering she may find a reason for pleasure as well.

    Start planning for their 18th birthdays now, try to imagine how much wiser and older they will be and how they also look to the future with certain insecurities and fears.

    Aim even further and think of grand children and what names you could suggest for them.

    Give reality a chance to show it deserved and deserves your attention, with out conditions. Unconditionally ask that you may be allowed to see just a mere 12 minutes of sunshine as I did many years ago.

    You will be surprised I think by how often reality will grant your wish for 12 minutes. Eventually you will see those 12 minutes become a lifetime.......

    Can you promise yourself to wait until your children have majored?

    Create a purpose for your sufference, give your suffering a value that allows you to see worth in your existance. Just 12 minutes of sunshine....think about it....
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2006
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    A technique that may be helpfull.

    " so I took my razor blade and I put in in a match box wrapped in tissue. I then wrote upon the surfaces of that match box the number 18, and found satisfaction that I could determine that date and no one else. So I carried that match box, with the razor inside, around in my pocket for 3 years until I forgot I had it.
    And when 18 finally arrived I looked back at all those 12 minutes of sunshine I had been blessed with and thought about that match box with it's razor in it and smiled the smile of someone who had achieved a victory over darkness and despair"
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2006
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  5. PHPlatonica Im over myself now... Registered Senior Member

    Two sides to every world.

    I think my staying would be more unhelpfull to my children. They do not need to see me freaking out all the time.

    So, for this thread, I answered my own question. "Can we be trusted?"

    We run in any way we can to escape the Darker self inside. No matter where you go, there you are.

    I half feel like I found more people to hurt. Here they are trying so desperatly to help me. But I do not understand why.
    On the other hand, it was the only place left I wanted to turn.
    Even my Suicide failed.
    Some would say it is because I am here to serve a higher purpose.
    Others would just say That I am an idiot and wasn't seriouse enough in my attempt or I would be dead.
    But None of the "some ones" are here to experience what I did.

    "science has a long way to go before there can be help past sedation.
    I am sorry to any God and genetics for my self mutilation.
    But hear me now, since you did not then..... I wont be past this, not ever again.
    And the Days will pass, the flowers will grow. Theres a message in this that some may know.
    I hate to stay, tho did not die any way..... But I wont go back nor live for today.
    Of course there is hurt beyond and past murder. But this Exsistence is bull shit why go on any further?
    Here I am, I will always be me. Manic Depresive theres no way to be free.
    I will accept this again, as I have done in the past. And I know for sure the acceptance dose not last.
    So Run away again, I am sure that I will. And harm not others, but this dilusion I will Kill.
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  7. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Actually PHP my comments were not about the children but more about what you could want and how for you, seeing their 18ths would be something you could look forward to.

    The idea is to make a pact with yourself to wait until after their 18th birthdays before taking any drastic steps. Allow them the chance and the time to show you the value of your ongoing existence sort of thing.

    If you can make such a long term commitment to suffer for the number of years necessary it allows you a different perspective on what you do now and today. Just a suggestion OK?

    The other thing I want to say, now that you have re-surfaced, was that this thread on the issue of trust has promoted significant thinking on the subject for me.

    To me, trust expands to the issue of "suspicion" which then goes on to expand to the issue of "Fear".
    It pointed me towards song sung by Elvis Presely "Suspicious minds" with the lyrics that read:


    We’re caught in a trap
    I can’t walk out
    Because I love you too much baby

    Why can’t you see
    What you’re doing to me
    When you don’t believe a word I say?

    We can’t go on together
    With suspicious minds
    And we can’t build our dreams
    On suspicious minds

    So, if an old friend I know
    Drops by to say hello
    Would I still see suspicion in your eyes?

    Here we go again
    Asking where I’ve been
    You can’t see these tears are real
    I’m crying

    We can’t go on together
    With suspicious minds
    And be can’t build our dreams
    On suspicious minds

    Oh let our love survive
    Or dry the tears from your eyes
    Let’s don’t let a good thing die

    When honey, you know
    I’ve never lied to you

    Music and words by Mark James​

    I went to my favourite coffee shop in my disguise as a CIA agent [ hmmmm....ha] and decided to study just how pervasive suspicion is in the general community. I must say your question certainly helped to show me the significance of suspicion generally.

    So someone talks about paranormal experiences and immediately the sceptcal listeners thoughts become suspicious. Suspicious of that persons mental state and competancy.

    Suspicion has a natural by-product caled dis-trust. They go hand in hand and can not be separated.

    It seems that suspicion is a main reason for what separates people and keeps them from developing trust and strong and nurturing relationships.

    What are your thoughts on this issue of suspicion PHP?

    How does it effect the general publics perceptions about so called "normal" persons not to mention those persons that apprear to be challenged in other ways?

    It took a while but this thread has helped me enormously...and I thank you.

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  8. Dreama Registered Senior Member

    hello, all. I couldn't help but become interested in this thread. It touches so many things that have been parts of my life. Yes, QQ, suspicion and dis (or mis) trust, go hand in hand... but I think that FEAR is the bottom line emotion. When we have suspicions, or lack of trust, it is because we FEAR something that might be lurking there.

    Sometimes when that fear and suspicion is attached to someone we LOVE, we try to make the suspicion and distrust go away... because we don't WANT it to be there... we try to ignore it.. or talk our selves out of it... or, better still, let our loved one talk us out of it... reassure us.

    But... the thing is... when someone does something... lying.. cheating... whatever brings their trust-ability into doubt... then it is very very hard to NOT keep watching/worrying that it might happen again... ergo - suspicions and distrust.

    But, when it is someone you love, you can't help but WANT TO BELIEVE THEM. And want to give them the chance to win your trust again.

    Even when talking suspcision in the case of the person with paranormal experience really boils down to fear, I think.

    Maybe the question to ask is, Just what are they afraid of?

    and... PHP...

    my heart goes out to you... and your children... and your family. And I hope you find what you need.
  9. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member


    Where to begin with this little dainty?
    Issues of trust.

    There are several issues that have been brought up that are quite interesting in an abstract sort of way. However, I am all too aware that there is a danger in the abstract. A danger in losing track of the true intent of this thread. A danger in losing sight of the overall meaning of Platonica's questions.
    She is looking for something specific, methinks.

    First. I suppose I'll address the issue at face value.

    How far can one trust the mentally ill? The mentally handicapped? The physicall handicapped for that matter. Or, hell, anyone, when it comes down to it?
    Platonica has made the point very clearly when she said, "Should we just "feel sorry" for the blind doctor and look past the disability so far that our own lives COULD be in danger?"

    Now. Pushing the element of 'pity' aside for now (I actually wrote a bit on this, but deleted it as it is off topic. Perhaps more later), it's been made plain that there ARE things that people cannot be trusted to do.

    A blind man cannot be trusted to do delicate surgery. Although, people have done amazing things, overcome great handicaps, and one might well be surprised by just what a blind man is capable of.

    Nor could you trust an untrained person to perform skills that require training. However. Again. Sometimes people can surprise you.

    These are issues of competence.
    Trusting someone to be competent in one area or another. Areas that depend upon certain attributes. Certain perceptions. Certain trainings. And when these attributes, perceptions, and/or trainings are absent then... there is a necessary lack of trust.

    What of other issues of trust?
    There seem to be several different areas being intermingled here. Perhaps a brief foray into categorization might be in order?
    I've already mentioned issues of competence in technical skills.
    What other categories might there be?

    Issues of morality.
    Issues of stability.
    Issues of predictability.
    Issues of creativity.
    Issues of rationality.
    Issues of aggression.
    Issues of dependence.

    I'm sure the list could go on for pages. These few should suffice for the time being, methinks.

    In my thoughts on this subject, and from my reading of Platonica's words, and from my own life experiences, I believe that, at the core of this discussion, is the issue of predictability.

    All the other issues intertwine and mingle. But, ijn practically all of them, we find the issue of predictability.

    We depend upon people to be predictably moral. Either good or bad. Corrupt or innocent. Greedy or selfless. Loving or hateful.
    We depend upon people to be predictable in their behaviors. To be rational or irrational. To be aggressive or nonaggressive. To react this way or that way to certain stimuli.

    It is when people are unpredictable that these issues of trust reach a crescendo.
    Life is about choice. Every step taken in life is a choice. To do this. To do that. To do nothing. To do something.
    In order to make choices, we use induction as our primary tool. We remember our past. And we apply to this the likelihood of the future. We gauge the consequences of our actions based upon the consequences of past actions.

    But when we can't predict the behavior of one who we share the world with... then we are uneasy.
    When we don't know how to act around a person in order to elicit certain responses... then we are uneasy.
    When we cannot accurately depend upon our predictions keeping us from danger. When aggression, anger, or even happiness and joy, come from other in an unpredictable manner... we are uneasy.

    We are social animals. And part of the social fabric is a mechanism by which we can coexist. Which we can use to predict the actions of others. When a maverick enters the scene. One who is unpredictable.
    Then we are uneasy.

    We are unable to... be restful around them. Instead we must constantly be on the lookout for unexpected behaviors.

    We are unable to trust.

    So. What then?
    What then do we have?
    Can the mentally ill be trusted?
    Can people suffering from Bipolarism be trusted in this way or that way? Because, at root, they are unpredictable. They change. Their world changes. From day to day. From hour to hour.
    Can we trust?

    What of the predictability of inpredictability?


    The fact of the matter is that there is no blanket statement that one can make. That one should make.
    We cannot (or should not) say that we can trust or can not trust the mentally ill.
    We cannot (or should not) say that we can trust the mentally ill to perform this or that task well or poorly.
    To do so would be to do a grave disservice to the human being who is being labelled as 'mentally ill'.

    As has been stated several times over, we must choose on a person by person basis.

    This is on a social level.

    What of other levels?
    What about jobs? Positions of trust?
    Can we afford to deal with them the same as we do on a personal level?
    I don't think so.
    I think that it is understandable that the default in certain positions of employment should be that ability must be proven.
    This is not to say that the mentally ill should be barred from such positions, but rather that the bar must be set quite high for entry. And that if someone labelled with certain conditions don't desire to jump through the necessary hoops to prove their fitness, then that is their choice.
    We live in a litigation driven society, and employers should not be blamed for being wary of such situations.

    A few quotes:
    If there has never been a 'crime' (an incident that proves inpredictability or tendencies towards other types of negative behaviors) then there should be no issue. If someone is diagnosed with a condition but shows no signs of that condition then.... something is wrong with the picture.

    Perhaps everyone should stay on guard against everyone at all times? Known problems or no.
    As has been stated, mental illness is not an automatic sentence of untrustworthiness. Many 'sane' people are far more dangerous than the mentally ill.

    One should beware of falling into generalizations. One should always judge on a case by case basis. The risk of not doing so is to fall prey to their own mental illness. Undiagnosed though it may remain.

    I have witnessed this myself, recently. Witnessed the way that 'professionals' get all glazed-eyes and aloof when dealing with the 'mentally ill'. They've fallen prey to the label and cease to regard the person as a person. They have too much data and too little knowledge. Too little understanding.
    I've seen how the eyes shift from looking at the person they're supposedly speaking to. Instead, they look at the person they're with. As if they are a child and are incapable of understanding their situation.

    Client/consumer lingo is unsavory to me in this regard. Perhaps its intent is something completely different, I don't know. But it seems to make things impersonal. Any true type of mental health care must be extremely personal in my opinion. Of course, I am completely untrained in this. But how can it be otherwise?

    To medicate is not a cure. Yes. There are aspects that need medication. But environment plays a key role.
    I've witnessed this myself.

    There must be several layers of therapy.
    And being too impersonal is not helpful.
    They are people. Not objects.

    Beware the fallacy of categories.
    This goes for far more situations than the one under discussion.

    I find it interesting. This "paranoia" in parentheses here. Also, you later throw in "insecurity" in much the same manner.
    Very interesting to see the seeds of such behavior.
    It is important to realize that many times, these behaviors that are focused upon as detrimental, are simply normal reactions to stimuli.
    I think that when one has been labelled mentally ill, their behaviors are examined a little too critically sometimes. Care should be taken.

    A problem occurs in communication here. Communicating why certain behaviors manifest. Explaining why they aren't unpredictable at all. Even if not entirely.

    Or as you say:
    I seem to recall the term 'neurosis' being applied to one who examines one's own inner workings to too much of a degree.
    To get caught up in reflection rather than acting.
    I doubt if this is the proper use of the term however.

    Everyone is like this.
    It's just that maybe most people don't have quite the number of emotional dilemmas that others have.

    It's interesting, however, to think that emotion plays a key role here.

    Did you know that people with no emotions (damaged mammilary bodies for instance) suffer from indecisiveness as well? The classical vulcan ideal is that logic is tantamount to godliness. Erase the emotions and erase the uncertainty that emotions bring. But this is not true. Emotions are the base of our behavior and much of our rational behavior exists on top of this base behavior. As an afterthought. An explanation for something that already exists without words.

    Without emtions, the tally lists of pros and cons grow and grow and grow. But the choice is never made.

    I suppose this is different than making a choice then changing your mind and going back on it.

    Without emtion, one never commits to a choice.
    With too much emotion, one commits all too easily?

    This does not always mean that the choice is wrong though.

    This definition seems most meaningful to me at the moment.

    This is a purely personal choice. And must be made on a case by case basis. By asking for an answer here, you're making the same mistake that people make against you when they fail to trust you based upon your condition rather than upon your behavior.

    I find this very interesting. This idea of trust being taken personally.
    I intended to speak of this. But have since changed my mind. It is this which is rather abstract and would likely lead off-topic.
    Perhaps I can be convinced to speak my thoughts later.
  10. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

    Above and beyond all, I suppose, is that the truth of the matter is that trust must be earned. Trust is not a default state. It cannot be.

    This puts us in a difficult situation in our world.
    Man has evolved as a social organism. And yet the world for which he has evolved has, for the most part, vanished.

    Man's social groups were, for eons, small. Groups where everyone knew everyone else. Where there was a hierarchy and where the abilities of one's peers were well-known.

    Recently (the past couple thousand years), social groups have grown and grown and grown. This leaves man in a quandary. So many of our social mechanisms are... archaic and actually hinder us in this new society. Everyone experiences this in terms of angst. Unease. Nervousness. So many different manifestations of this inability to truely plug into the group in the way we used to.

    To be cared for medically, we no longer are able to fully trust our doctor. It is not generally possible that we have followed his career with any great degree of accuracy. We also have very little insight into his personal life. We do not have access to all the criteria by which a proper judgement might be made.

    And yet, we must be cared for by a doctor. And the diploma on the wall is supposed to be a symbolic substitute for this underpinning of the social support system.
    And yet. It just doesn't do it, does it?
    Not completely.

    We live in a society where we are expected to put our trust in strangers from time to time. On the roads. In the hospitals. In restaurants.
    This leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

    It is for this reason that the requirements for trust must be so stringent.
    We must placate the sense that our trust can never truly be satisfied in this world of billions. We must fool ourselves that we are doing everything we can to safeguard ourselves and our loved ones in a world which is mostly invisible to us.

    I spoke to you once about being trapped on an island, Platonica. Do you remember?

    I find the paradox of freedoms involved in such a predicament to be quite.... stimulating.
    Almost nauseating.

    But. Trust must be earned.
    As must respect.

    There is no free ride.
    Even though our modern world expects us to bequeath such things with hardly a care.
    Christian morality would have us love our enemies. But it's a lie.
    Trust must be earned.
    To dole out trust as though everyone were due would be to diminish its value. Would be to spit upon it. Drag it through the sewers. And for what? What's the point?
  11. PHPlatonica Im over myself now... Registered Senior Member

    Your words are as perfect as I think you are.

    I love you for that, and more I am sure of it.

    My fear about trust is that The day I can let my emotions NOT rule me, that day I can make you happy, and every one happy.

    There was a women with Croans in the hospital. I never felt so Much sadness and helplessness with her. I wanted to save her. Why I can I not want to save myself though?

    I want the dilemmas gone. I want a trailer trash Kingdom by the sea.
    I can't get any of that if My mind wont calm down. And it is no one responsibility but my own. I know this. Other wise I will hurt what I have loved. I refuse to do that again.

    you have many good Points Nexus. you are a wonderful person. I knew that when you helped me write, and change the capitalizing.
    I am terrified today. I Do not know what will happen, but I have a good idea as to what is to come for me.
    I will be back.. and stable. I do believe in the profession, though I hate every last one of them.
    There is an Answered... I may not like what it is, or what it will do to me. But should the demons not be faced, and soon, then I am not the only one who will be brought into my Limbo. I know this from experience. Though every one is different, I know things of myself that will never change. They haven't for 32 years. And when Death call's to me in all his seductive glory, I want to fallow him.... and be there.
    This wont do any good for any one I love. So I will fix this one way or another.
    a Best friend of mine was afraid that I may just up and leave again. And I did. Only to get Help... help in the only way I know how with out hurting any one any more. I hope this friend understands this. Nothing would break my heart more then to know it was for nothing.
    I will not suck any one else down in my hell, Not now, not ever. Should the coffin or the Body donor call to me, then I know I still have one thing left to give.
  12. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

    Far from perfect, my dear. Too far. But I progress. As do we all. Although some lose sight of this progression from time to time. interesting, that, seeing as how they also focus on how things change...

    The more things change... the more they stay the same?



    I love you for more than I am able to express as well.
    You are a good person. One of the best I've met. Even though you are often confused. And unsure. And scared. There is a power in you. You just have forgotten how to use it. Or perhaps never knew.
    You will, someday.
    You will learn yourself. You will find that trust is earnable.
    You will someday learn to trust yourself.

    I believe in you, Tara. With all my heart. All my soul.

    I know you're scared. I know that going where you're going, while the only path to help available, is also fraught with peril. I've seen how it affects you. The negative energy feeds on itself and grows.
    What they must think of you when the negative energy and fear overwhelms. Aggravating and magnifying every problem.
    I wish.
    I wish I could go with you, Tara. I would. If I could. I would stay by your side, just as I stood by your side in the ER.

    The woman with Croan's. She was in such pain. And you were the only one who cared. The only one.
    I thought at first that you were encroaching on her space. I feared that she would get angry. Or nervous. Or upset.
    But she didn't.
    She loved you that day.
    Loved that light in you.
    She trusted you.

    True. She didn't know about your condition. But, at the same time, I doubt that, to her, it would have made much of a difference.

    There is trust in this world.

    You have to find trust in yourself.
    A true form of trust.

    Love yourself as others do.

    The cycle is vicious. You expect to not be trusted and this causes certain behavioral signs that increase the tendency of those who know your condition not trust you. And they amp off each other.
    I've seen it.

    Knowing is not curing though, is it?

    If only.

    As to drawing people into Limbo with you.
    I deny this.

    I've been thinking.
    You fear Hyde. And, I can understand this. But, at the same time, for those who truly care, they can withstand Hyde in remembrance of Jeckyl. In trust and faith that Jeckyl will return. That Jeckyl always returns. Eventually.

    One must always love with a remembrance of the best of times.
    Or so it seems to me.

    I love you, Tara.
    And fuck anyone who scoffs. Or raises an eyebrow. Or whatever.
    Stay strong and remember those who await you.

    I trust you.

  13. PHPlatonica Im over myself now... Registered Senior Member

    These have been the Longest months of my Life.

    WOOPS, capitals!

    Honestly though.. I am terrified of so much. Things I should not have done. the things I have done.

    The things I think I have done, but am too medicated to remember?

    My Heart beats the same. So says the Vittles. I left part of my self back in the hospital.

    How I wish you would have been there that night, when I fell apart... and into the morning when no one could find you...
    On the other hand, the Hyde was so Vicious perhaps it was for the best you were not available.

    As hard as I tried to not pull you into my Limbo, I did any way.
    I suppose that perhaps I showed you a world that you did not know existed.
    I know you showed me one I did not know existed.
    I wouldn't change that for anything.
    You made me so Happy. You made me laugh, and Cry.... Showed me things that I honestly thought impossible... but you were there.
    I told you once I wanted to teach you something that You did not know about.
    You know many things.
    I think, though, I must have succeeded.
    How ever, never once did I mean to pull you into the hell I see.

    I am still afraid of not being trusted. I fear my own actions as well. But "I don't regret the choices that I made, I know you feel the same".......

    A road of oddness For sure.
    I miss you terribly!
    I know I must not have showed it very well. But I do.

    All that we accomplished together in such a short time, is endless, and beyond all compare.
    How I wish I could explain this with those I know, and have them understand.
    But they have something you do not.
    a Precognition if you may.

    Perhaps, this is why I wanted to run away.
    Start over.

    I was "found" though, wasn't I. things were taken from me. A new order set...
    It all hurt so much to the point that it seemed so useless to go on.
    And I failed so miserably. And was So obvious that there was no longer anything I could hide, But rather Hyde.
    So more was taken. Taken from the very core of my being and existence that I am more afraid of the hanging scab on this wound and the fact that it may fall.
    In other words, I am afraid of losing what I tried to run from.

    This is all so very hard.
    I am completely reminded of how I failed, and all the things I have failed at.
    Not just from loved ones, but from all the "professionals" out there who are "Helping"..
    It is feeling hopeless at times.
    it does remind me of why I was so attracted to Philosophy though. It makes my bond stronger. I am just too Impatient. A Virtue I hope to pick up on some day is to learn patience... That is almost laughable, but true.

    "What have I become? My Sweetest Friend......... ??"

  14. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned


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  15. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

  16. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

    "Everyone I know... Goes away... In the end..."

    Please, Tara. Don't speak like this. You're reminding me of someone who used to speak of the Eternal Recurrence. She never understood Nietzsche's intent when he wrote of it. Or perhaps she merely took his words and applied them differently than he intended. I really can't say.

    But. It doesn't have to be that way.

    The song. Hurt.
    I just read the lyrics and the portion that sings to me is this:

    Beneath the stains of time,
    The feelings disappear.
    You are someone else.
    I am still right here.

    We all go through changes.
    Don't we?

    I still trust in you.
    I still believe in you.
    I will always believe in you.
    Even when you've lost all belief and confidence in yourself.
    I'll believe.
    I've seen you. And I can never forget what you've taught me.

    I am someone else now. You've changed me.
    For the better.

    You did, love.
    You taught me so much.
    I still remember the day I told you that you had things to teach me. This was long before we met in person. Do you remember? You scoffed at the notion. So insecure in your own power. I knew then that you would teach me. I just didn't know what.

    Thank you, Tara.
    Thank you for everything.
    From the bottom of my heart and soul.
    I owe you so much. Nothing I could ever do could repay what you've given me.
    I will spend the rest of my life paying the debt I've incurred towards you.
    And consider myself lucky.

    You did not pull me in. I dove in willingly.
    And I'd do it all again.

    Remember always, I choose my path. I own my life.
    My road is my own.

    Do you really mean that last? I hope you do. I regret nothing either.

    I wish you could trust yourself. Someday, perhaps, you can bring yourself to trust yourself. Trust yourself as I trust you.

    I suppose this comes back onto topic (danger... danger... back to topic alert!)
    You need to be realistic about things. You are always too hard on yourself. Always so hard on yourself for all your 'failures'.
    You've messed up this and that. You've hurt this person and that person. But you've also succeeded. And you've also brought light into the world.
    We all have our successes and our failures, Tara. And I think that when the end tally comes up, your life will be viewed as a worthy one. You are a good and caring person, Tara. I hold you in the highest esteem. If only you could believe in yourself.

    How I wish that it had never had to come to that. The fault is not yours in that night, Tara. No one can say that it was. Did Hyde come out to play? Blood on the walls? Well. Who's fault is that?
    I hate the blame game as it's so unproductive. But, when it comes to your situation, with you constantly blaming yourself for every little thing, you must realize that you were not at fault. You'd cried out and cried out and cried out for help, for aid, for succor. And what happened? What happened during that week when you were whisked away with lies and promises? What aid was offered you? What was done about your delicate situation?

    I know I'm contradicting myself now. Talking you into not 'owning' the responsibility for that night. But, you were lost. You were practically primed and programmed to act that way.

    Saving you from yourself? How was that happening?
    Answer me that.
    They knew. They knew and they did nothing.


    (Now I'm getting angry... Better change back to melancholy before I say something I regret.)

    Yes. I believe your heart beats the same as well. You're just having a hard time hearing that beat now.
    Listen, Tara. Can you hear it?

    I know you do. And I miss you. So much.
    If only... If only you could trust your feelings. If only you were allowed to.

    You know. It's funny. You're allowed to trust some of your feelings, but not others...
    It's not fair. (Now I'm sounding like Metakron... Funny how some situations force you into this sort of helplessness which he rvels in. I suppose that explains a lot.)

    You know. I almost regret that...
    But. I can't. It wasn't right.

    Are you sure? Were you running from what you're now afraid of losing? Or are you blurring concepts?

    Stay strong, Tara.
    However it works out, I know that you will be a wonderful person when you've made it through. You'll be a stronger one. You will have succeeded and you will see and acknowledge your success. Perhaps acknowledgement of one success will allow you to see the rest which you glance over so often.

    This is one of my favorite lines from Nietzsche. I find it applicable here. I wonder if you can see why:
    "Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman--a rope over an abyss. A dangerous across, a dangerous on-the-way, a dagnerous looking back, a dangerous shuddering and stopping.

    "What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end: what can be loved in man is that is an overture and a going under.
    You are a bridge, Tara.
    Remember that.
    Ignore the concept of the overman as it is somewhat cliche and egotistical. But you are a bridge. We are all bridges.

    Also reminds me of Apocalpyse Now:
    "I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream. That's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor…"
    I hate patience.
    I want it all now, too.

    Tara. Stand strong. Own yourself, but remove yourself from the yoke of shame that threatens to overwhelm you. You've made mistakes. But you're not alone in this. And your mistakes were not the worst made in this whole affair.
    You will succeed in your trials. I know you will.
    But you must escape the shame that weighs you down. It will topple you if you let it.

    Stand free. And stand true.

    The world will be yours.
    If you want it.


    I trust you.
    Whatever path you choose.
  17. Tnerb Banned Banned

    so close.
    long ago when I read, I read for the reading, just to... bloody read.

    good luck tarah wishin u well
    take care
  18. leapfrog Registered Member

    10 a days all the f@#ked up people....I love these conversations, what did people ever do without you for hundreds maybe thousands of years?.... get over it

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