Bipolar, Schizoaffective, BPD (Ect)... Can the General Population Trust These People?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by PHPlatonica, Apr 4, 2006.

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Can The General Pop Trust these Individuals?

Poll closed Apr 24, 2006.
  1. Of course Not

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Not with Most things

    2 vote(s)
    18.2%
  3. Not with Important Issues

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%
  4. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    54.5%
  1. jshatz Registered Member

    Messages:
    24

    When I applied for my state psychotherapy license, a question on the application stated "Have you ever been treated for a mental illness or substance abuse?". If you mark yes, you have to send all kinds of waiver paperwork to the board, including treatment and releases from psychiatric assessments stating you are stable to provide healthcare. The disorders they worry about are the SPMI (Severe and Persistent Mental Illness), mostly schizophrenia and bipolar. There is still stigma, but I think licensing boards for professionals who put people's emotional and physical care in their hands, want to assure that they can adequately provide the care.

    I had an inpatient client tell me, not to long ago, that if he knew his therapist or psychiatrist had mental problems he would doubt the treatment effectiveness. Interesting!
     
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  3. kirstykiwi Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
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    After knowing consumers who have been in the system for years, I honestly think they are aware that their conditions keep them from entering the workforce full time. Most consumers I know lack the motivation and ability- however, I do know lots who do part time work and that suits them fine.

    And it's true that some consumers do not want to be treated by health professionals who have had their own mental health issues.
    There is a wonderful woman who is a consumer here that started up an advoacy service - for consumers by consumers, which gives service users a chance of advocating for service users in a safe, empathetic environment because sometimes its the health professionals who are most discriminatory.
    I like to use strenghs theory as it is sometimes a humbling insight into others who have heaps to offer, when society doesn't give a damn.
    I guess its a fair enough question to ask as an employer whether you have had a mental illness or been treated for substance abuse - I guess it all depends on the level of responsibility of the job if you want to lie about it though.
     
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  5. jshatz Registered Member

    Messages:
    24
    I also operate from a strengths perspective and solution oriented model. I think clients/consumers (you must be a new age clinician like me

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    )who advocate and are involved in their treatment tend to do well. It is a treatment in itself. And I agree, with the SPMI mental illnesses, it is hard to maintain professional jobs, especially those which require human services.

    It's an interesting contrast that I find many of my clients who abuse substances use the defense of "you have never been in my shoes, how can you help me?"; whereas many clients who have mental illness state "If you have walked in my shoes, you are not stable enough to help me". I have never had a mental illness or substance abuse problem/diagnosis. A heart surgeon does not have to have heart surgery to know how to provide the treatment!
     
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  7. PHPlatonica Im over myself now... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Kirsty, are you a Mental health worker??
     
  8. PHPlatonica Im over myself now... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    So, for me to say "Trust" is misleading. Of course, I knew it would be to an extent. like claiming "The Sky is blue"... Sure it is, some times... he he... I wanted to pull people in here.

    People tend to take that term trust to a more personal level.

    It is ok. I know that there are incredible things that I can endure and am more capable of BECAUSE of being bipolar. Then there is the sadness of trying to accept that no, I will not be like every one else. Which can lead to a more depressed state.

    I really would like a more open minded view in a lot of ways, from BOTH sides of the spectrum. From Sufferers, to the every day person.

    I feel that for myself, knowing what the general population feels, thinks and sees in people with mental disabilities, will help ME to cope more with the behavior I feel that I am facing.
    It is my way of doing MY part to meld into the general population. I do not ever want to USE my "disability" as a crutch. I use it for an explanation. But with the right counseling, and family I have learned that even though it was an uncontrollable reaction to something, I am still responsible (just like every one else) for my actions.
    With the right treatment, I learned that I can not expect to place my hand in fire and not get burned. Whether I meant to put it in the fire or if it was an accident. The consequence is the burning.
    The same applies in the "real world". Though, I really want to break some of the stigmas behind the way the average social structure see and group "Mental Illness".

    MOST people with a mental or emotional problem are already tortured. The "Psycho Killer" is a rare phenomenon. Yet, we see in movies and news stories that serial killers are "psycho" there is some thing wrong with the brain. We group in ALL mental illnesses.
    When that is usually not the case at all.

    When you are in therapy with a decent Doctor and counselor, you learn ways to COPE with society. You don't learn what society thinks of you, or how you can teach society that you are not a threat. You PROVE that you aren't. You SHOW that you are alright.
    The perception of most every day things are different with a person who is suffering from a mental altercation.

    A way for perhaps a person who doesn't suffer on a day to day basis, would be to trigger a memory of a feeling. Perhaps of being very afraid. Don't think of the situation that triggered the fear, just the fear.
    Under certain mental distress, these chemicals release and trigger those feelings. In people who suffer with a disorder, these chemicals are OVERLY released, and some times just released with out cause.
    That makes it hard for a functional person to comprehend. The behavior is what they see, not the chemical reaction. Imagine losing your bladder for no reason on stage during your speech. (DOH!)
    Even though people with feel bad for you that that happened, the shame and embarrassment of not being able to control the bladder will still effect and bother you.
    You will do things to avoid that situation again. Any where from never giving a speech again, to having to wear bladder control underwear. Even if it may never happen again in your life, the embarrassment triggered is so devastating. Seeing the people who witnessed the accident, even if they are sympathetic just triggers that feeling of shame again.
    When you have an emotional out burst that you could not stop, it doesn't matter what any one else thinks, the shame an embarrassment that haunt you after is very hard to deal with. you want to hide away. you want to shrug it off and blame it on your disability. You punish yourself for "letting" it happen. All of these things tie into a knot that seems impossible to untangle until you let it go. But you never completely let it go.

    There is this WHOLE different world going on in your head that you are trying to deal with, along with trying to function and communicate in the woken world.

    Being Bipolar your entire views shift. There is a lot of inner self justification going on. The decisions that are finely made, are only made up for that moment. And there is no stability in that. Then sense of security is not there because it changes to different extremes at different rates. THIS we as sufferers know. We know to put trust in other things that may be more stable. Doctors, family, work, depending on their OWN stability to help comfort the lack of stability we have. It takes a strong person or facility to do that. Most people do not have that strength. The ones that do, seem more harsh and commanding. Treating you as if your a child and incapable of EVERY thing. When in truth, it is occasionally that you are not capable of handling something. And most people with this disability know it enough to warn a person that they just can not take it.

    Some where, in all of this, there needs to be a balance and acceptance placed in a social structure. An understanding to a degree. Blind people accept that they are not capable of driving. You don't see them picket lining to drive. (??) The general population works with the blind to help mix them into society.
    But, when it comes to emotional instability, you are treated different. People become cautious around you. There is no being treated like every one else.
    I think people do that because most of our communication to one another depends on the emotions exhibited. When you are emotionally messed up from time to time, it closes off that stability.

    I would hope that a line can be drawn with acceptance. An acceptance that doesn't include pity or jealousy. Perhaps one that works on the strengths we have in this illness.
    One that will lesson peoples fears and stigmas. Especially the paranoia's.
    Any human is capable of unspeakable acts regardless of mental altercations.

    Of course, then there is the OVER medicating that seems to happen, that makes a lot of people who are in my shoes very distrustful of the motives BEHIND why those medications are prescribed.
     
  9. kirstykiwi Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    81
    Phplactonica,
    My story is that 6 years ago I went through ah hellish time with an axiety disorder that ended me up in the mental health unit and under mh services for a while. I could not believe the suffering consumers go through and I became facsinated in Mental health issues, and wanted to help in any way I could. So I did a Certificate of Mental Health Support Work, and last year I completed a Diploma in Social Work, so I could work in a hospital setting (no nursing for me, I'd be hopeless).
    I really admire people with mental illness, they are true survivors.
     
  10. johny_israel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    94
    man i don't trust anyone
    i don't care what you have it's about the choices a person makes not their natural flaws
    all of our human nature is untrustworthy
    so to me trust is proven over time
    because really, for me anyways, i can't control my fealings and thoughts
    but i can control my actions
    and it's a persons actions that really count
     
  11. PHPlatonica Im over myself now... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Yea... That makes Sense johny... hhmm..
    so what do you think of forgivness?
     
  12. johny_israel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    94
    well basically im not gonna waste my time holding a grudge against someone i could give a shit less about
    i've just basically learnt that that person definately cant be trusted, why waste anymore time on them
    as for someone close to myself hurting me, that would be harder to forgive, so there its a tough one
    depends on the situation
    i suppose forgive and move on, even though it would still be hard to do
    but for me i have a hard time getting close to anyone
    for those reasons, i find it hard to turst people
    and when i do trust someone or care about someone i think i probably get too attatched
    so i try and stay away from it in general because trust and respect are very hard to find
     
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,276
    PHP , great thread,

    Trust vs market pressures:
    Say we use the example of a person applying for a job as an airline pilot.
    Say he has to fill in the application form and it asks if he or she has had a history of cardio- vascular disease, that or high blood pressure.

    If he answers yes and is recieving medication for tis condition would the airline be justified in discounting his application on the grounds of
    "duty of care" to their passengers?

    Would they be prepared to place an aircraft with 300 odd passengers in the hands of someone who has the potential for a sudden change in medical condition and one that seems to be reactive to pressures such as occur sometimes with aircraft?

    Is it a question of trust or is it a question of dealing with the reality that a person with said medical condition would simply be an uneccessary risk when there are others with out a history of medical problems that could just as easilly be used to fill the role?

    Is it about trust or is it about market driven concerns, such as getting the best employee [ or spouse, confidante', companion etc] for the job that they can get?

    Even if we disregard mental health issues for a minute we may consider if we wish, that trust may be a floating concept and what most persons do is mitigate the need to trust in the first place. For example: most employers now use cameras over tills even if their own family is using them and so on....So is it really a trust issue?

    Or simply a market driven risk minimisation strategy that people apply and not just to their work situations but also to their private situations as well?

    Just some alternative thoughts to throw in the pool.....

    BTW nice to read you KirstyKiwi....
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2006
  14. Tnerb Banned Banned

    Messages:
    7,917
    I was diagnosed schizoaffective disorder depressed type; generalized anxiety diorder; possible schizophrenia; that's the worse part. I found the thread interesting because Quantum is raising the issue of trusting these people ( I think ).

    I certainly would agree to their safty being a risk for society.
    A far as trust, who trust? It all depends.

    It should be known though that society can't trust people who are prone to in-proniety. lol Most definately they can't be trusted as far as goes such things but it depends.
    yeah

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  15. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

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    1,244
    Your dialogue here is very enriching to me PHP. Thanks for sharing this exploration. From my perspective, your posts certainly allow me to form a fairly trustworthy opinion of yourself, and one of a percieved stability. Would you say that you generally trust yourself? How would you diagnose yourself regarding the "trust" factor?
     
  16. Capo Crimini The Deranged Norwegian Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    40
    I think it really depends on the person. I have bipolar disorder (type 1), and people have no problem trusting me. But people have different personality traits regardless of diagnosis, and I think they are more important when it comes to trust.
     
  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,276
    Sorry to correct you but PHP gets the credit for raising this issue. My post was only to broaden the discussion a little.
    I personally think it is an extremely difficult and vexing question to answer.
    I think it took a great deal of courage to start the thread and I tips me hat to PHP and all who have and are particpating in it.
     
  18. kirstykiwi Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    81
    Hi QQ, Always nice to read your non confrontational sensitive points of view.
    I think the pilot anology would be based on trust rather than market driven forces as you say because of safety reasons - they would fail their medical on the grounds you mentioned. ( Al ot of pilots have substance abuse issues and still fly). I would not trust a surgeon with parkinsons to operate on me, yet I would trust information he could give as he is qualified.
    I suppose it all depends on the job, and the level of safety. The person with a mh diagnosis may be looked upon by an employer as someone who might take a lot of time off work, which would be a market driven force.
    I tend to look at the character of a person - that tells a lot.
     
  19. Tnerb Banned Banned

    Messages:
    7,917
    I agree, and thanks for the correction.

    I went through a lot of shit a while ago. Now i'm still going through shit. I went to the life mannagement center for the adult day class, or whatever. There were a lot of people there. Many different types,

    Honestly I thought I was lucky to not be as bad off as they were....
    I thought they were people who were nice and sensitive. But there were a lot or a few liars and people you can still trust who were at the same time, angry or violent.
    One guy there lied about his popularity and talked with another (paranoid schizophrenia) guy trying to be cool. I thought they seemed "normal" as far as that goes,

    As I said I thought I was lucky and I told my teacher there Thomas Huber was his name: a psychologist and philosopher or so he pretty much said; we talked a lot.
    I some times suggested things we could do and didn't get what I wanted from it.

    But as it comes out, I think a lot of these people can be trusted. Maybe just the very bad ones.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,276
    I am not sure, but I think what I was attempting to say was that I don't think trust is quite the right word for this issue. I trust implicitly and also realise that a person may be handicapped in a way that whilst not compromising that trust limits it's ability to manifest itself in a productive [ work or employment] manner.

    I am trying I guess to compare this question to any other physical dis-ability. AS to whether this effects a deep and personal trust ...I don't think so. Although behaviours may be such that that trust is truely tested.

    I said earlier that this issue is vexatious to the extreme. Possibly because of all the differring perspectives involved.

    It has much to do with how a health condition such as we are discussing compromises the degree of predictability that another less challenged person can determine. As outcomes vs intent seems to be not so well related.

    But does this relate to the issue of trust. I doubt it.

    As the disability places a person in a precarious postion, he or she have a less ability to predict their own futures which leads on to an inability to provide such for someone else. But again is this a trust issue? Or is it more of a reality of condition issue?

    Sheesh!!! this is a tough question........
     
  21. PHPlatonica Im over myself now... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    let me break this down.

    There are things that a personal with mentaland emotional abilities could never possibly do, and get a sense of trust from every one in doing them. Period.

    I want to show that "life isn't fair" in many ways, but if we take "trust" as a personal issue, than we are lying to our selves and others.
    I seems t boiled down to abilities. Sire every one is prone to mess up. Those of us who have showed repetitive "distrust" or "lack of complete capability are not people who SHOULD do certain things. And that should be ok. With all of us.

    As Jshatz pointed out, there are things that under certain conditions a person can do. The bottom issue IT TRUSTING. Not trusting their person, but rather their capability.

    What the world could do to help this, is FIND capabilities in people with disorders that they CAN Achieve, and show that they can.
    But it isn't this way. There is a stigma that these "mentally challenged" can not handle a HUGE variety of jobs.
    There isn't enough work being put in to help them achieve those abilities, rather, they are hidden from society through welfare and Disability. The depression of never being able to prove then CAN achieve these things because of a diagnoses leads to hatred, and suicide.

    It is where I am. And Have been for a time. I know what I am capable of doing. And I know what LEGAL Chemicals help me achieve prolong out burst.. But the stigma itself behind Drugs of ANY kind, Like LEGAL, set up this wrongness in peoples mind.
    Is it so hard to admit that if I am Lacking a chemical, and there is a pill that can fill in that missing chemical, shouldn't I be able to take it? Or should I not take it because %95 people can not take it with out a drug altering "affect"... so in stead I am put on something heavier and more dangerous like Zyprexa, and thorazine? things that make me LESS functional?

    When Will the Profession listen to US about what we have tried and succeeded with? Like velum?
    Where is the line of "dependency Drawn"???
    I depend on my medication. With out them, I am not better then a Street Junky robbing to acquire them. A lot of Dr.s fear drug abuse, but there are pills an places for daily and weekley injections. But these things are not achieved. So We do with out, untill we act out.. and whos the bad guy then>?
     
  22. PHPlatonica Im over myself now... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Trust

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    well, thank you.
    I have not been "Trustworthy" in the conflicting of my emotions. They have gotten me into more troubles then I can ever possibly explain.
    When the fear and mania creep in, I am afraid "trust" no longer exist for me. I am scared, and I think every on has alternative motive. I do one of two things under those circumstances.

    ONE: I will lash out, and feel that everything said and done to me was an alternative motive. Like, thinking my roommate was putting brake fluid in my coffee in order to kill me slowly. SO I would make him drink from my cup every time he poured me coffee.
    Other times when I could not find something, I would lash out that it was stolen. Though I had no proof. When I confronted the accused, I was blown off as being paranoid. And not just that, the person was hurt that I did not trust them. It grew from there, to where people thought, I I could not "trust" then I must not be trust worthy.
    I worked on this for a long time. Until I could not longer take it and I slit my wrists.
    This just proved I was weak and not trust worthy when I was found. I am afraid pity was never something given to me.
    It seemed to me there would never be away out. And when the psychosis started, it was more of a friend. I no longer had to trust any one. But it changed my perception of reality. I found I hated more things that liked. When I tried desperately hard to make it all go away, I was alone. And crazy, then given pills. Many of which locked me inside the hell in my head. I became fascinated with the dead. In almost a jealously.
    I wanted so much to be the way I perceived people were. The ones who did not physically hurt them self. Or depend on chemicals to function. I would never be like them. Not in my mind.
    I looked for others like me. But the questions I wanted to ask them where hushed away by the Doctors and Counselors. Afraid that I might give them more ideas. When All I wanted to know was WHY? Why could I not love my self the way other people did? Why were thoughts and feelings so against me?
    Telling these things to a Psychologist ended me up in another asylum. And I realized that NO BODY knew why. They just new different chemicals to protect other people from my oddness, and hopefully protect myself. But that protection, for me, was nothing more then being trapped inside my own night mares.
    I ran away from it all. I made believe in things. Lived some fantasy world where some day I could "go to this mythical place" that I belonged. I began to take Prozac. That slowed the depression. And Velum for the mania attacks.

    But I refuse to believe I am the only one like this. With a mind, and backwards morals.
    So, Trust..... I do not trust. I do not trust any entity. I fear them, though with people I perceive like my self, I admire them and want to learn what they know.
     
  23. PHPlatonica Im over myself now... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Dearest Capo Crimini,

    I grew up in a small town where "known diagnoses" like mine, were looked not as a problem, but a "situational choice". Some one who seeks attention.
    Of course, a lot of that thinking was sadly altered when my sister and parents entered my bed room hearing me scream and cry.
    I was 13 at the time. VERY young, but wanting all this to end. Unfortunately, when the artery was nicked, the blood shot in my face and I screamed. Bringing attention to the rest of the house hold. My Sweet sister, ran into the room first. She began to scream as well. Shortly after, my mother and step father and brother came in.
    There was blood every were. In my face, my hair. One hell of a way to learn about the pressure of blood and biology. I went into shock. I screamed and couldn't stop. When my mother entered the room, she slapped my litter sister across the face and screamed at her "What have you done to your sister?". She had a horrible welt on her check.
    My mother then, in shock turned to my step father, and screamed at him. He jolted back and hit the hallway walls. He fell into tears. My strong father turned into this weak confused person.
    My Mother left the room and grabbed a wet towel. She wrapped it around my wrist and shook me. She said "What are you thinking you self ish slut?" She grabbed the toweled arm and brought me to the ER.
    Why did I fail? there was so much blood, and I know I would not have screamed if the blood and copper smell hadn't hit me in the face.
    We enter the ER, my mother and I. I am crying, I can't even remember what lead up the discussion, everything they took place after word was more traumatizing. I begged to be dead. I called out to my mother as they scraped the fat cells out of my wrist.
    The Dr. were forceful. They asked me things like "why did I want to do such an awful thing?" and "how did I think god felt?" I said, if god were there he would have stopped me would he? This seemed to make them angry. No longer were their bed side table manners. they told my mother I was hateful. I looked up to her and said I was sorry. She said she knew I was sorry, sorry I didn't die. Then she told me she was disgusted with me. The clotting, the smell of blood copper and iodine. she said I was no better then my father.
    She left the exam room. But I was better then him. I was sober. I was only 13.
    She told me from that day on, that she could never ever trust me. Not to make any decisions. That she couldn't wait till I graduated from school. And how she hated me for what I had done to the family.
    I was alone.
    She was right. What had I done? and WHY?
    the pain I felt was so strong, but wording it out right was trivial. When I had talked about my feeling and the strength of them in the past, I was told to shrug them off. But the emotions stayed. It was the emotion, not the situation I was fighting so much with.
    The staring of into space. The change of perspectives.
    That doesn't include the psychosis that would happen. Keeping me awake from days on end. With the lights off. Staring out at a star lit sky praying that please some one take this away. There has to be another way. A different way.
    I would try to attempt things, like school events, friends in the drama team. I didn't like any of them. They were so phony. No were for me. I began to party. To be around people who would at least act similar to how I felt. For a time any way. But that just made me more untrust worthy.
    I had to face it, some thing was wrong with my perception. Why could I not cope and understand the people I lived around in an every day basis? SO MANY times, it would have been easier to be dead. But, I always failed. I wouldn't shoot my self because I was so afraid of living. I have taken more pills into my body then a system should be able to hold with out destroying their organs. I mixed up drugs, I drank some bleach. But I failed at that too, my gagreflexes couldn't handle the burn and taste. I am a failure.

    So, Eventually, with all these experiences under my belt, I thought perhaps I had a better meaning. Maybe a god, or a guardian angel? or just REAL dumb luck.
    I evaluated people. Trying to learn what it is they were so holding on to life for??
    I began to dress up, lose weight.change my appearance. Become more shy. That wasn't how I felt inside though.
    The things I have seen, and done will always ensure that there is no hope for my self. That isn't self pit, it's matter of fact.
    But I can change in the way I react with people. Tell them my experiences. Let them know any choice they have is there's. But that there is some one here, existing in this hell. So I know it is possible to do it. Especially with 1/2 apathy and 1/2 empathy.

    So Don't give up. It isn't always great. But the repercussions of the fuck ups, will hold you too a prison that your mind will never escape.
     

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