Big Foot DNA

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by river, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. river

    So now a Texan is lying... Hmmm

    Because you don't won't to learn the truth...?

    Justice is about hearing both sides of the story

    You refuse to have a balanced approach to this subject , as do a couple of others

    Hence injustice to her
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  3. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

    Don't be daft. I'm eager to hear her side of the story. I've said so repeatedly. She simply doesn't give it. She gives an interview of rhetorical bullshit that seems to have swayed you, but scientific data is not there. It simply isn't.

    My approach is completely balanced. I'm skeptical, but I'm still willing to be swayed by evidence. The evidence is absent. She refuses to share it. Instead, she continues to claim "a paper is a few weeks away" as she's done for over a year. There's no valid reason why the publication cannot be revealed. There's no valid reason why she shouldn't share the data under embargo with professionals in the field (she's refused).

    And, yes... Texans lie. This is one of the most fucked up states in the Union. Lying is par for the course among the redneck dipshits in my state.

    Share with us the transcript. What are you afraid of?
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  5. river

    So to your first statement , are you saying that you listened to the interview on coast to coast ?

    You have to pay for it , what transcript is free ...?

    You have no balance of thought at all
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  7. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

    Google search gives recording of the show as well as some partial transcripts. So much for pushing those subscriptions.
  8. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

    You're the one arguing that she's on the up and up... Surely the transcript can't cost that much. Just pay for it and share an excerpt with us for critique.

    But I did actually just listen to her interview. Noory is a hack... what a moron. She reveals zero evidence. She gives a lot of rhetoric and says (and I paraphrase) that if the paper isn't accepted for publication, it won't be because of the science but "something else."

    So she sets herself up as a victim when the paper isn't accepted.

    And apparently it was not. Igor Burtsev, the guy that "leaked" here story said on his Facebook page recently: "the reviewed journals in the US refused to publish the paper. That is why Dr Ketchum has sent it to me to arrange publishing in any Russian reviewd journal. And I showed to our genetisits and understood that it was a serious work. I gave it up to the journal, now it’s under reviewing."

    Other sites are saying the same thing.

    So it'll be the fault of "mainstream" scientists, no doubt. Not the science in her methods and results. But she did say that she'd make the study public if not accepted.

    There we can rip it to shreds for the pseudoscience it is... unless of course the science holds up.
  9. river

    You listened to the interview did you ..? All three hours

    It was george knapp
  10. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

  11. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

    Ah.. so it was. I missed the intro with his name. Knapp is a hack too... all his anti-science poppycock. But that's the reason why the show is considered a crack-pot magnet and one that is taken seriously only by significance-junkies and mystery-mongers. The gullible.

    And the version I listened to was an hour and 19 min.
  12. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    I checked some of the links that Walter provided (above) and she certainly doesn't inspire confidence in her news interviews. And in one of Walter's links ( I found the following which I consider to be VERY damning of her personality, ethics and creditably. Read it and see if you could possibly believe anything she says:

    "In November, a Texas veterinarian named Melba S. Ketchum issued a press release claiming that a creature that people have been calling “Sasquatch” or “Bigfoot” for years, is actually a human hybrid creature, created from the mating of human females with males of “an unknown hominin species.”

    Ketchum made the surprising claim that she had sequenced samples of Sasquatch DNA samples in order to develop her findings.

    Oddly, Ketchum’s announcement was made prematurely, as she did not provide any actual evidence, nor did she describe where the alleged “Sasquatch” samples came from. (1)

    Numerous mainstream media sources wrote about Ketchum’s discovery as though it had come from an actual scientific study, failing to do any background research on Ketchum, or her Texas company DNA Diagnostics.

    However, several bloggers did conduct proper research into her background, revealing numerous problems with her background, previous claims, her lack of credibility based on past business ethics, and her current motives in producing a publication or documentary about her alleged bigfoot “findings”.

    A thorough analysis reveals that Ketchum is not a genetics “researcher”, and she has been taunting bigfoot DNA claims for over a year without ever providing an ounce of evidence to support her claims.

    Business Ethics

    Ketchum refused to answer requests for additional information, however considering the track record of her current Texas company, DNA Diagnostics, that lack of response is not surprising.

    The best research regarding Ketchum’s background came from the Over the line, Smokey blog, which turned up astonishing facts about Ketchum and her background.

    Cryptomundo first revealed the truth about the fact that DNA Diagnostics, Inc. is listed with an “F” rating from the Better Business Bureau. The Bureau provided 16 factors in providing the worst business rating possible, not the least of which included accepting payment from customers without providing sufficient or any DNA results in turn. In most cases, Ketchum failed to respond to the Better Business Bureau’s investigations.

    Unlike the findings of most legitimate scientific studies, Ketchum’s announcement was not picked up by most credible news outlets.

    However, she did accept an interview with George Knapp over on Coast to Coast, where she attempted to explain away those “controversies” by telling Knapp that some “non-ethical people” became involved in her project, but she assured Knapp that none of those people were involved with her “final paper.”

    Lack of Credibility

    Many supporters explained away the BBB “F” rating by stating that the rating could have been nothing more than disgruntled customers. However, the impressive analysis over at Over the line, Smokey revealed that the DNA Diagnostics rating was only the tip of the iceberg.

    The extensive write-up on Ketchum revealed the following about this alleged “DNA researcher”:

    –> She had also founded a company called Biogen Diagnostics, which is “not in good standing with the State of Texas”. (3)

    –> In 2010, Ketchum had partnered with Robert Schmalzbach and Richard Stubstad in a business called Science Alive, LLC, where they originally noted a “statistical anomaly in mitochondrial DNA results”. Ketchum went on Coast to Coast in 2010 to call for more Bigfoot samples and made claims about Bigfoot which Schmalzback felt was premature. She disagreed with him, formed her new company, and cut Stubstad and Schmalzbach out of the loop. (This of course contradicts Ketchum’s claim that she never “went after” Bigfoot samples). (3)

    A great quote from Matt Moneymaker, the head of the Bigfoot Research Organization said about Ketchum:

    “She’s been pursuing BF DNA samples for years (because of their potential to attract publicity and funding). Even pitched herself to TV producers. For her to imply the DNA samples ‘just came to her’ and she hadn’t been steadily soliciting for them…really demonstrates her dishonesty.”

    Attempts to Copyright Bigfoot DNA

    What the Over the line, Smokey analysis revealed in a big way was that Ketchum is clearly a scam artist of a very slippery sort.

    When attempting to visit the address listed for the DNA Diagnostics business, they discovered that the building was closed down and had a “For Sale” sign on the front lawn. The owner told researchers that Ketchum had stopped making payments on the building in 2010, and handed the building back to the former owner in order to avoid foreclosure.

    Researchers also found that Ketchum had registered another company named Biogen Diagnostics, Inc. in August of 2011 – also “not in good standing” with the state of Texas.

    The researchers also found the Ketchum was using various names and addresses in her different endeavors, including yet another low-rated business named Genetic Design Research, Inc. registered in 2008.

    Probably the most revealing fact about Ketchum is the one revealed by Cryptomundo, that Ketchum is applying for a copyright to “…a film and/or documentary, narration or audio book, supporting photos and literary paper/document/book that will follow The Sasquatch Project, the scientist and the scientific testing and proof for the existence of Sasquatch/Bigfoot.”

    The final line of the application reads, “Documentary stars Melba Ketchum, et al…” (3)

    Ketchum has been making these sorts of claims since 2009, and has turned up not an ounce of evidence, despite advising followers to “wait” for the findings. (5)

    The only conclusion that can be drawn here is that Ketchum is simply fishing for publicity to promote the upcoming documentary she hopes to pawn off to unsuspecting and uninformed believers.

    Unfortunately, interviews like that aired on Coast to Coast only serves to assist in those snake-oil sales efforts – but what’s new?"

    Additional comment: I would class our forum member "river" as one of those mentioned in the next-to-last paragraph - "unsuspecting and uniformed believers." And I would add "highly UNeducated" to those attributes.
  13. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

    Heh.. you certainly dug more than I was willing to. Good work.
  14. Read-Only Valued Senior Member


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    That should surely put the lid on it for reasonable people - of course, though, that immediately excludes river.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

  15. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

    Now if we can just convince river that X-Files is not a documentary.
  16. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Ha-ha! Yeah. <big grin>
  17. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

    Yes, I read that link in its entirety, which is why I posted it. I also watched both the video and the audio of Ketchum, and it seems quite at odds with the 'expose' article I linked, which is why I posted them as well.

    First, I suspect the closed building is an older site they went to by mistake. DNA Diagnostics center ( TX.html ) in Texas purports to be the "largest and most experienced" private DNA testing center "in the World", based on their message machine for the holidays. I'll call them later in the week, but I suspect someone will answer, and it is not a closed-down building as the 'expose' article would suggest. They have a toll-free number at 866-890-0445 if anyone else wants to call and get info, but don't everyone do it at once, as I'm sure they'd be bothered.

    Second, one should treat BBB findings as 'suspect'. There were only a few (16?) complaints, and I read through some of the complaining letters. On first glance, they appear troubling (money taken, no service provided). However, they were resolved according to the BBB. The 'money taken, no service' complaint had a valid company explanation (that also satisfied the BBB) -- i.e. the customer failed to provide hair that was 'plucked' (and with viable cells at the base of the hair) and instead provided cut hair, even though instructed to provide plucked hair. Cut hair would not yield the results being sought. That is actually not that many complaints for a large business. Many larger companies have thousands of complaining letters, which usually get resolved. I've heard that if you are not a member of the BBB, you'll get a negative rating if there are complaints; whereas paying your 'dues' to be a dues paying member of the BBB results in a better rating. Not exactly the best system to evaluate the viability of a company. Some people have complained that that amounts to 'extortion' to avoid a negative rating.

    Third, it appears that Ketchum only started soliciting DNA samples after she was approached by others, so her statement that she didn't start looking for this can be seen to be correct, in that after she was approached, she started doing what would be expected.

    Fourth, her oral statements on those two links (and a third I've heard) do not present her as a dimwit. Rather, she talks about double-blind studies, with samples sent to many different laboratories for analysis (without the laboratories knowing what was being analyzed), and those were both private forensic laboratories (such as hers) as well as university laboratories that have less-stringent requirements (to satisfy 'chain-of-custody' requirements for forensics, which she states her laboratory and other forensic DNA labaoratories are required to follow).

    Fifth, her oral statements reference over a hundred samples, mostly hair but some others, that were acquired from various 'sasquatch investigators'. Apparently, there is a very large network of persons investigating, and many of them provided 'chain of custody' information.

    Sixth, the study was purportedly leaked after it was rejected by one journal and sent to another. Reasons for rejection can be varying and not in and of itself a rejection of the value of the study. Because of that leak, Ketchum was placed on the 'defensive' while trying to protect the identities of the research institutions pending publication, according to her.

    If it is all a hoax, then I suspect that Ketchum herself is being hoaxed. There are, of course, thousands of anecdotal reports of Bigfoot sightings.

    So, if others wish to review this, you should read all of the links I provided, and not just ROs summarization of the 'expose' article, which superficially would appear damning.
  18. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

  19. river

    So... Why does this matter in the big picture ?
  20. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

    This appears to be correct. The one for which I provided the website is "DNA Diagnostics center". The one involving Ketchum is "DNA Diagnostics, Inc." dba "Shelterwood Laboratories". Both are in Texas. The websites for the one involving ketchum are now all down and not accessible as of very recently. It appears she is 'in hiding'. Here is what "Spoke Search" ( ) wrote about her, however:

    "Dr. Melba S. Ketchum, Director
    Dr. Melba S. Ketchum grew up in Texas City, Texas. She is a Moody Scholar and attended Texas A&M University where she received her doctorate in Veterinary Medicine after five years at the university. She had a mixed veterinary practice until she founded DNA Diagnostics. Dr. Ketchum has shown horses extensively and has a ranch in Texas where she still maintains registered Quarter Horses and American Paint Horses as well as a herd of Charolais cattle. Dr. Ketchum is the president and founder of DNA Diagnostics, Inc. d/b/a Shelterwood Laboratories. Established in 1985, DNA Diagnostics has become a leader in all types of DNA testing including: human and animal forensics, human and animal paternity and parentage testing, disease diagnostics, trait tests, animal and human identity testing, species identification and sex determination. Most common species of animals are tested at DNA Diagnostics. Dr. Ketchum has also established a research program ranging from gene mapping to developing the VeriSNP? (patent pending) platform for universal genetic evaluation in multiple species of animals. Other research includes genetics of disease, population genetics and other genetically important traits such as coat color in animals. Dr. Ketchum is a past three-term Chairperson of the International Society for Animal Genetics Equine Genetics Standing Committee. She has also been Dog Map Chairperson and a Committee member on the Dog and Cat Parentage Committee. She is currently the Treasurer for AFDAA, The Association of DNA Analysts and Administrators. Dr. Ketchum has a daughter and a son and lives on her Attoyac Valley Ranch in East Texas."

    It appears that she was been very involved in genetics testing over the years, but it also appears she's run into financial difficulties for her laboratories:

    It appears that she has indeed shuttered the doors on her business. That in and of itself does not impact the other points I made, though it is definitely not a bright spot.
  21. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Heh! I'd say "not a bright spot" is a MAJOR understatement! All her other "activities" you listed most likely pay next to nothing - so, with a failed business, she certainly needs a source of funds and that's a *perfect* motivator for a Bigfoot scam.
  22. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

    Possibly. But it does not appear (to me, anyway) that someone would so willfully torpedo an extensive career with such a scam. It appears that her research for the paper began 5 years ago, whereas the financial problems are much more recent. However, I don't exclude it from the range of possibilities, at this stage. Time will tell. After all, we did discover another primate species (new to western science, that is) just this past year ( ). A cute one at that!

    Incidentally, I forgot to mention that the lawsuit involving Ketchum was settled the following year:
  23. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

    When it comes to discovering a primate species, it helps to have an understanding of primate distribution through space and time.

    The largest non-human primate was a resident of South Asia (southern China and Viet Nam) called Gigantapithicus, which was larger than modern gorillas, but ceased to exist at about 500,000 years ago. It wouldn't be inconceivable that a large primate could go largely unnoticed, gorillas in places like the Congo did for decades, but the larger the primate, the larger their calorie demand -and the larger their impact on the environment.

    In order for enough large primates to exist in North America such that they could successfully reproduce, their numbers would have to be sufficiently large. Their footprint on their ecosystems would be noticed. It wouldn't be a matter of trying to find DNA samples, they would be falling in our laps. At one point, the Red Wolf's numbers were down to around 17 in the wild. This was a small, elusive mammal yet conservationist/scientists were able to track, count, and eventually catch all 17, breed them in captivity, then release them into the wild (their numbers are now in the low hundreds). If this were possible for a small, elusive mammal, a large, lumbering primate should be relatively easy to track and at least locate. There are just too few isolated places in North America that are left.

    Also, primate migration to the New World is an interesting topic in itself. I think once one has reviewed some of the literature on this, the notion of a "big foot" in North America simply becomes suspect in itself.

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