# Big Bang Theory Is Bang Wrong

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by amraam, Nov 12, 2001.

1. ### PersolI am the great and mighty Zo.Registered Senior Member

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Why? I could state that an infinite universe has a finite amount of mass/energy in the middle.

3. ### CanuteRegistered Senior Member

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They are, I agree. But an infinite cosmos does not necessarily entail infinite galaxies or earths or people like me (thank God). And, for instance, the multiverse theory, which entails an infinite cosmos, is becoming increasingly respectable.

5. ### blobranaRegistered Senior Member

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My Fuzzy thinking

@Beercules

"An infinite universe has an infinite amount of energy, hence an infinite number of galaxies."

Hum, the current thinking is that the energy is locked up in space and time ( this gives rise to the infinite amount of matter that can be created virtually).
It is true that every point of space has infinite energy...Virtual particles are formed constantly. In fact every single electron that has ever flowed through any electrical wire is a virtual electron that quickly disappears and another one appears....
But every point of space can be renormalised, all the infinities can be cancelled. It is only the energy PEAKS (above the sea of infinite energy) that count.

This background energy is really only a negative(or positive), of the super-symmetry breaking of the early universe, and a balance to the space /time/gravity.

The sum total energy of the universe is zero.

As is the rotational, electrical energy.

Baryonic matter is the normal matter we see and there was only a limited amount made during the BB.
No more can be created ,except from baryonic energy, (doh!) as in e=mc2...

If we could tap into the virtual energy of the universe then we could make a perpetual motion machine...(there must be a universal law prohibiting this).

7. ### shadowstechnocrat:Teach meRegistered Senior Member

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our cozmos is a cirlce that is in a trig function. We are in the 3 quadraunt of the function. It is not 2 dimension or 3 but 12.

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Huh?

9. ### shadowstechnocrat:Teach meRegistered Senior Member

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its a thought that goes beyond anything I have ever thought before. Trig has funtions on 2 dimensions. Calc is 3 and the universe on a whole is 12. It is very complicated what I am seeing in my head right now

10. ### PersolI am the great and mighty Zo.Registered Senior Member

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You can do more then 2 dimensions in trig and more then 3 in calc.

11. ### shadowstechnocrat:Teach meRegistered Senior Member

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really im just beging trig. How many can ya do and how?

12. ### PersolI am the great and mighty Zo.Registered Senior Member

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As many as you want. You start to get problems over 3 however because it's difficult to visualize.

13. ### shadowstechnocrat:Teach meRegistered Senior Member

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ya, how high can you go with explainable dimensions and properties?

14. ### CanuteRegistered Senior Member

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Re: My Fuzzy thinking

It seems to follow that the cosmos is a perpetual motion machine.

15. ### blobranaRegistered Senior Member

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If the universe was to be a perpetual motion machine, then it would have to have another beginning.
(aka, the big-rip or heat death leading to another bb).
Just now, we are only sure that it exists, this may be the only universe that has ever existed or will exist...Or it may be a cyclic phenomena (a problem for the philosophy forum).

The sum total energy of the universe is zero. The universe would be a perpetual non-motion machine...

16. ### BeerculesRegistered Senior Member

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There is energy even in the vacuum, so an infinite universe would indeed have infinite energy. If galaxies like ours could form in one region, it then follows an infinite number would also form elsewhere in this infinite space/

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Evidence?

18. ### blobranaRegistered Senior Member

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A difficult one, is virtual energy the same as normal energy.

i said ,Baryonic matter/energy was formed during the bb.
there was only a finite amount made.
This energy is different from space/time energy.

Im not sure that matter could be made out of gravitational energy, but i suppose that it could. (lepton baryonic phase transition period of BB)
You are proposing that TIME (energy?) or space (energy?) could be transformed to normal baryonic matter?

(this BTW, was a feature of the original string theory)

And , may i add , if we DO regard the virtual energy of space/time as areal (i know) then the total mass off the universe would be infinite (and quickly do a big- Crunch), but this is not the case...(as our presence testifies).

Space and time may expand to an infinite size (disregarding the boundary conditions of a foamy-space scenario) but the universe (not just the visible horizon universe) can only contain a certain amount of matter. (imho)

Your proposal smacks too much like the steady state theory.( For my liking)

Last edited: Mar 10, 2003
19. ### CanuteRegistered Senior Member

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Assuming that by 'universe' you mean the same thing as 'cosmos then that is a little illogical. If it were a perpetual motion machine it wouldn't have had a beginning.

I don't want to worry you but if you study some philosophy you'll find that we haven't yet manged to prove even this much.

How could it be otherwise?

It is a question for the common sense forum. How can something that either eternal or which came into existence from nothing be cyclic?

Prabably the most important thing we know about it, but a pretty obvious one. How could it logically amount to more than nothing? Where could any balance of 'something', if there were one, have ever come from?

20. ### blobranaRegistered Senior Member

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How can something that either eternal or which came into existence from nothing be cyclic?

We dont know very much about the nature of space or time,
BUT
i could propose that the universe ( trillions of years in the future) may become so empty/isotopic of matter (most would have been converted to energy), that the conditions may be correct (in a region of space) for a series of quantum fluctuations that result in a new universe being created...

And if i apply Darwinian principals to this i could say that the new universe inherits similar physical rules as the parent...and so on...

HEHE, but this is for the astral forum....

Last edited: Mar 10, 2003
21. ### BeerculesRegistered Senior Member

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This is one of the key elements of many inflation models. The early universe starts out as a vacuum, but a small region inflates to what we call the visible universe today. So if you had an infinite vacuum, you would have infinite matter.

The mass density would not be infinite, and that is what determines that fate of the universe. Even in the standard big bang model, an infinite universe is a possibility. Such a universe would have an infinite amount of energy, but since omega is less than 1 (or 1) expansion occurs forever.

Only a universe that has always been infinite can be infinite in volume, since a finite cosmos stays finite no matter how long it expands.

22. ### shadowstechnocrat:Teach meRegistered Senior Member

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evidence, there is only afew hints and peices. Look at the sin graph on a trig proplem. On the slope going down would you just assume that the universe is speeding apart faster and faster or would u think that this couldn't go on forever.

23. ### BeerculesRegistered Senior Member

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I meant evidence for extra dimensions.