Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by kmguru, Jan 2, 2004.
Anyone talked about Bible Code here? OR want to?
Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.
I would like to know about it. What is it?
In a nutshell:
It consists of sorting through books (usually by computer), skipping every 3rd or 5th or 33rd letter (or whatever), and seeing if you can spell out some actual words. Then, you take the words you've found and try to relate them to each other, if you've found them close together in the book. Then, you pretend that the words you've found actually carry an important secret message. Then, you write a best-selling book for the gullible and walk away with the royalties laughing.
Here are the interesting issues.
The Bible Code people say that certain world events can be found in such code digging and since a large number of such past events can be shown to occur, therefore the code mechanism is somekind of prophecy and that future events can be foretold (if you ask the right question - there is always a catch). Basically the code breakers are saying that the Bible (in this case the Hebrew version of Torah) contains the entire history of of civilization from start to future finish.
The critics say that any large book subjected to the same process can provide the same answers and so Moby Dick did provide such answers. Therefore the whole Bible thing is a hogwash.
Now, the question come to mind is:
1. Can all the major historical events be found in such code breaking process and why? - that is statistically significant?
2. Just as smaller prime numbers can be found in very large prime numbers, is it similar to the mathematical theory behind this process?
3. Did the code breakers in the cold war or wwII, did really break codes or killed a lot of innocent people by
this phony process of decoding that can produce anything one seeks?
Something leads me to lean towards this conclucion. I wouldn't be surprised given all the paranoia and impetuous decisions both sides made during the war.
Anything more on this code. I have heard of it before, aboue how it predicted the end of mankind and even 9/11.
I saw on the History channel last night and hence the interest. You need to do some serious googling to get to the bottom of this. There may be a book out there that you can scan at the library or a book store. Since anything you seek could be found, I would not bet on it for any prophecies. My interest is the scientific basis and have some interesting ideas that we will talk about it later.
yeah, lots of people try to pull some code out of the Bible and pretend that they've found something. The reason that some of it seems true is because the Bible is rather ambigious, and allows this to happen. I remember there was one theory that in the Book of Genesis or something like that if you took the first letter from every 50th word, you would spell torah like a hundred times or something. I don't believe it. :m:
um yeah, what about the elfs
And, you call yourself HOT....aaannd...SEXY....? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
im a guy. i thought you all knew that. anyhow we here at sciforums had a huge discussion on the choice of my name like a year ago. :m:
<i>Basically the code breakers are saying that the Bible (in this case the Hebrew version of Torah) contains the entire history of of civilization from start to future finish.
The critics say that any large book subjected to the same process can provide the same answers and so Moby Dick did provide such answers. Therefore the whole Bible thing is a hogwash.</i>
Yes. The fact that <b>any</b> text of a similar length can be used to generate the same kinds of "predictions" tells very strongly against the Bible code having any validity whatsoever. The fact is that if I programmed my computer to generate a text the same length of the bible, but with totally random letters, the bible code "decryption" method would find just as many predictions in my text as Drosnin did in the Bible.
<i>1. Can all the major historical events be found in such code breaking process and why? - that is statistically significant?</i>
No. And neither can ALL historical events be found in the Bible. On the other hand, if you go looking for a <b>particular</b> event in many different ways, you're almost sure to find it.
<i>3. Did the code breakers in the cold war or wwII, did really break codes or killed a lot of innocent people by this phony process of decoding that can produce anything one seeks?</i>
There is a very important difference here. The codes in WWII actually <b>did</b> have encrypted messages. They were <b>meant</b> to say what the decoders said they said. You can compare the original, uncoded, messages with the coded ones in many cases, and the decoded results match the originals.
There was only one way to correctly decode German ENIGMA messages, for example. Any other method would give gibberish, or only part of the message would make sense. On the other hand, Drosin's method "decodes" only a tiny fraction of the information in the bible, which suggests that there is no code actually there at all. In fact, there's only one way to make sense of all the information in the bible, and that's to read it in the language it was written.
Yes. The fact that any text of a similar length can be used to generate the same kinds of "predictions" tells very strongly against the Bible code having any validity whatsoever. The fact is that if I programmed my computer to generate a text the same length of the bible, but with totally random letters, the bible code "decryption" method would find just as many predictions in my text as Drosnin did in the Bible.
OK, so Bible code does not have any exlusivity than any other books. That does not explain why:
1. Same kinds of "predictions" is itself useless
2. Why the result set is itself not a valid subset
In otherwords, are you hung up regarding the source of the information (in this case - the Bible) or are you refuting the information derived from it?
I really do not care if the information comes from Bible or Koran or Microsoft Office books - I am interested in a repeatable information set or subset that we could use.
Since you agree that such information is universal (that is change of source) then we need to discuss how we can use the information. Would you like to contribute in this area?
Looks like I have been gone too long or have not seen you in my pet subject areas - Artificial Intelligence, Cellular automata, Complexity Science, and Sanatana Dharma.
Now I know. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I have actually thought about something along the lines of this:
What if you had the capacity to take information from the here and now and place it into a text back in time. From that point you tell those that keep the text not to alter anything written within it because of the encoding and "religiously" they follow that reasoning.
When it comes to the point in time where the information is placed within the original text, there would be no more information available for decoding for any relative future points.
(Just a point, the codes that are "Discovered" are in fact used to encode the data in the first place. A regular 'Which came first the chicken or the egg' Scenario.)
To some this would seem a structure where there is nothing after than eventuum and some would fear and end, but the reality would in truth would be a new beginning of a higher understanding of some quantum events that would not have been understood before.
Well, there are two possibilities.
1. Someone from the future moved in time and presented a document encoded with certain information. I would love this scenario if we were in Pseudoscience. For fun, let us say, that is the case. Then if the right questions are asked, we could find out, how far the history goes to the future. Then we could know about what time the item was sent back in time.
However fun it is to speculate, I do not think such is the case. Otherwise all large books has to be written in the future and we know that is not true.
2. Since the results are facts, we must conclude that just as a specific prime number would show up inside a very large prime number - information itself would show up as a subset when a very large array is analyzed.
Does that mean, the information is useless?
I think, I have a hunch that the information may turn out to be authentic. That is, we could really find specific events of the future embeded in the code. There is an obscure branch of mathematics I was exposed to many years ago that could provide the answer. Basically, it says that the total nonrepeating data in the universe is finite and time independent. Hence the subset must contain data across the time. The math can be used to compress very very complex large data sets such as DNA.
Whether the Bible Code contains a full set of data or is partial, I do not know. But mathematically the time variable can be set to infinity thereby can be excluded in the equation. Hence, it may be possible to extract certain data from a certain subset irrespective of time.
I have been trying to use the same math to convert a person's DNA to a face. One of these days....in this case, I do have to solve the time domain problem or use a neural net and let the net solve it for me.
Let's take a concrete example. I will use your own words:
"I really do not care if the information comes from Bible or Koran or Microsoft Office books - I am interested in a repeatable information set or subset that we could use."
Taking every 4th letter (4 is a number chosen totally at random), this text reduces to:
Now, I'll split it up a little:
"i locieotcsmlkn iso co attn pair o tut tou"
Obviously, it could be split up in other ways.
So, what messages can we find here? Well, I can see the words "iso" (a prefix meaning the same), "co" (short for company), "attn" (short for "attention"), "pair", "tut" (possible reference to Tutankhamun).
So, is this a hidden message telling us to pay attention to a pair of companies associated with King Tutankhamun?
What do you think?
This is <b>exactly</b> the kind of thing what Drosnin does with the Bible code.
Look at how easily you can start something, like I am. I got the first million digits of Pi. Then I converted them into letters with 0=A, 1=B, etc..Then I came up with a formula for the number of characters to skip. Day-Month-Year, the day and month cannot have any zeros (30 turns into 3), and it uses the 2-digit year. So for September 11th, 2001 It would be day=11 month=9 year=01 -> 11901 skips. You find the words in each line. So it comes up with this:
Then you find all the words in it:
Clearly showing if he fib [and] hid[e], each big ice [will] die. Says that the liars and hiders will cause each big ice to die. I'm sure that the "big ice" is either refering to the airplanes or the towers.
April 30th 1945 is the day that Hitler died. Translate the date into -> 3445 code.
Including only words:
Hitler's Dad was partially Jewish. It' saying that the Jewish will be fed, and the bad will beg as it was the end of Hitler's ruling.
See how easily you can come with this stuff?
I remember writing about this topic a couple of years ago debating it with a guy called Daniel on these boards.
Basically, what I've found is that yes the code does work. But it only works because of the massive size of the books that it is searching through. Interesting to note is that the guy in his book only mentions how it says "Jesus is the Christ" but fails to mention how the bible code outputs "Jesus is not the Christ" more times. A contradiction.
This code does not only work with the bible but with Mobey Dick as well. If you search Mobey Dick using the code you will also find "Jesus is the Christ" and "Jesus is not the Christ".
It works with any book large enough to be able to search a key word and find it. So theoretically, if you believe in the bible code you would also have to believe that Mobey Dick and other large books have been coded as well. Since it will work with them to.
Anyone want to give "War and Peace" a go?
Yeah, it works with that one to. Its just that if you write a book about a code and use the bible you get more sales. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Separate names with a comma.