Best Martial Art?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by airavata, Apr 30, 2003.

  1. DefSkeptic Registered Senior Member

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    I believe you are right David. People can go on and on about the superiority of a particular art, but if it has not been proven in competition then it is pure speculation. The UFC has some of the best fighters in the world and I would say about 90% of them have a major wrestling background. A little of everything needs to be learned to deal with Submissions, striking and grappling.

    To people that might have a different view on the UFC, I can assure you that it has changed drastically since its first couple of years. These are highly trained athletes at the top of their game.
     
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  3. David Mayes Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, and not only is it speculation, it also seems to accompany views of superiority based on death/cripple blows...now I train MA for a variety of reasons, none of them sociopathy related.


    Initially they invited anyone, and usually World champions, but after all while it became apparent that your basic karate man was near useless in UFC, and UFC being extremely realistic and "practical".


    One of the things I found fascinating was how difficult it was to win with your fists{a few exceptions aside}.....as long as you covered up, you could take your man down, and if he wasn't prepared for the ground it was over bigtime.

    So IMO, for the typical streetfight, all you need is to put your hands up, bridge the gap and arm/leg/choke lock.
    Although, I'm in favour of knowing at least basic boxing techniques.
     
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  5. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    DefSkeptic

    do you know what the basic rules are regarding what you can-not strike and the type of actions that are against the rules ?

    if they are not allowed to use their skill and so must rely on basic strength then it is not art
     
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  7. DefSkeptic Registered Senior Member

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    From the UFC homepage-

    Fouls:
    Butting with the head.
    Eye gouging of any kind.
    Biting.
    Hair pulling.
    Fish hooking.
    Groin attacks of any kind.
    Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
    Small joint manipulation.
    Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
    Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
    Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
    Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
    Grabbing the clavicle.
    Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
    Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
    Stomping a grounded opponent.
    Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
    Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
    Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
    Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
    Spitting at an opponent.
    Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
    Holding the ropes or the fence.
    Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
    Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
    Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
    Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
    Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
    Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
    Interference by the corner.
    Throwing in the towel during competition.

    www.ufc.tv

    If you go to fighter bios they will give you some background information on the fighters. You will see that they are highly versed in martial arts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2004
  8. DefSkeptic Registered Senior Member

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    242
    Trust me there is plenty of skill involved. The rules prohibit actions that can cause really serious damage. MMA is looked upon as a sport so there are precautions taken as to protect the fighters as much as possible.

    Fighters can use their skills but they cant use dirty tactics like biting and eye gouging etc. They can choke and apply various submissions like rear naked choke,armbars,toeholds.........
     
  9. DefSkeptic Registered Senior Member

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    242
    This is very true. This is a major reason why Tank Abbot gained so much popularity. The competition was weak and the skill level was subpar. Now Tank gets slaughtered when he fights. I havent seen a Karate fighter since the beginning of the Ufc's. The one that I did see got beat up pretty bad.

    It is very good that you realize this. Very few fights remain on the feet for very long. Once you hit the ground you need to know how to grapple or else it wont be pretty.
     
  10. David Mayes Registered Senior Member

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    232
    DefSkeptic

    All true.
    I would add just for a matter of interest that some of the karate guys and particularly Tank would be extremely effective streetfighters, IOW, they would overcome almost anyone on the street EXCEPT a UFC expert.
    So Tank's style and ability is useful, but it was proven that UFC style was more effective, that's all.


    Sure, this is why if you could bridge the gap against Tyson{wouldn't necessarily be easy btw}, and get him on the ground, you could subdue him, as unlikely as that might seem to anyone who hasn't watched UFC.
     
  11. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

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    1,996
    In a street fight, if you tried to "grapple" with Mike Tyson, he would bite your face off. It's not only about superior technique... UFC (as previously listed) has a long series of regulations to prevent dirty fighting. If these regulations were not there, the situation would be different - so, UFC may not represent definitive proof of the best street fighting disciplines.
     
  12. David Mayes Registered Senior Member

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    232
    What does then?
    Do you think the opponent is passive whilst this attempted bite occurs?
     
  13. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

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    1,996
    Nah... but your hands are busy while you're climbing his arm like Royce Gracie. Besides, if he's stronger than you are those grappling techniques don't always pay off. Tyson was pretty muscly last I saw him... but I don't know what you look like, so I won't compare the two of you.
     
  14. DefSkeptic Registered Senior Member

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    242
    Everyone always picks Tyson as the supreme fighter. Hes got tremendous power and has stand up skills minus kicking and knees. Truth is he wouldnt fare well against a good grappler. Once he hits the ground he is intirely out of his element and will be controlled at will.
     
  15. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    2,762
    Remy Bonjasky
    i would imagine , would make short work of tyson
    http://www.k-1gp.net/top568.htm
    i watched him fight and i doubt there are any boxers that could compete
    unless they had trained in similar martial arts,... which boxing is not!
    it is a sport not a martial art that is obviouse to any martial artist and self evident by the cheating that goes on in the ring that is seen in most big tv media title fights
    the aspect of mental discipline is a good guide to illistrate that

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  16. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

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    If you don't think people "cheat" in a street fight I suggest that you never get into one... of course, I think I'd suggest that you never get into one anyway. When there are no rules, "cheating" becomes "technique".
     
  17. DefSkeptic Registered Senior Member

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    242
    Remy...Yeah hes a good fighter. I also think Mirko Cro Cop could do the job. If you've ever seen his high kicks then you would know the gauge of his power. Frans Botha competed in the recent K1 event and lost. Hes the guy that fought tyson and was winning untill the 5th when tyson landed a hard right.
     
  18. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    2,762
    BigBlueHead
    assuming for a second you might be referring to my comment ..
    if you have been in martial arts competitions then you will know there is different types of cheating as you might be thinking of
    one is designed to make things as complicated and difficult as possible the other is just to act like an ear biter
    for those who have little to no martial arts theory or knolledge
    as an example of what is legal cheating as opposed to illegal cheating

    if you are not allowed to strike with your elbow but when you throw your opponent to the ground you land with your elbow in the torso.. then that is there fault for not controlling their own fall

    but such things are way above some on this thread that seem to percieve themselfs as martial artists when in fact they are just brawlers

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  19. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    DefSkeptic
    after watching the k1 last few shows on tv through to the final, i thought it was interesting to see that remy seemed to be one of only maybe two, and on outside chance of three, people who were actualy skilled enough to apply their martial arts in the ring
    most of the others were boxers who were confused as to what to do,
    evidence of very bad training i must admit, and a lack of specialisation

    i cant recal one single fowl by Remy Bonjasky in his fights that i watched on tv

    as far as Frans Botha is concerned the worrying thing there is that by the time a guy like that hits the floor he could be 'walking dead'
    soo important to have highly skilled and on-to-it reffs
     
  20. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

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    1,996
    Riple: I know a little about martial arts competitions, but I was talking about real trouble - if you try "bridging the gap" with Tyson, as David Mayes said, he would probably realize that you are not engaging him in a legal boxing match. To reiterate, David was talking about street fighting, with all its implied eye gouges, makeshift weapons and broken fingers. If you are fighting some guy because he was trying to jack your car in the parking lot when you showed up, there's not going to be any fancy tournament stylin's and there's not going to be any rules either.

    When this happens we are all just brawlers. I'm glad you're clever enough to bend the rules a bit in tournament, but that's really not the same thing at all.
     
  21. river-wind Valued Senior Member

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    2,671
    While I agree with the items listed above as "fouls", many of them are very important to be able to use in a serious situation. including
    -----
    Butting with the head (your nose and my forehead=I have a chance to escape)
    Eye gouging (a person becomes much less dangerous after you have removed an eyeball)
    Hair pulling (not the girl-fight hair yanking, more of a method to control the head and the direction of body momentum at speed)
    Groin attacks of any kind (esp for women attempting to get away from a possible sexual attacker, this is one of the most useful areas to attack. If done improperly because not trained, this will only make the person more angry. In particular if they are drunk, and do not have the same level of awareness of their own body's pain.)
    Small joint manipulation (this is very very very handy to know in grappling street fighting. you tackle me in a street fight with intent to actually harm me, and I can get your finger, that sucker's broken at best.)
    Striking to the spine or the back of the head. (if you are drunk and charge at me with your head down, I'm stepping to the side, yanking your head around by grabbing your hair, and slamming you in the back of the head, and knocking you out - at least. I don't like fighting. If you are going to fight with me and have a true intent to hurt me, I will end the fight as fast as possible).
    Striking downward using the point of the elbow. (this is very handy for causing your attacker to fall uncounsious, have an arm go numb, or piss himself, depending on where you strike him. Possibly paralyse or kill him as well, so in tournements, it should not be used)
    Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. (again, if your intent is to kill me, and I have access to your throat, I am crushing your trachea.)
    Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. (no purple nurples? aww, no fun (j/k))
    Grabbing the clavicle. (there is a pressure point about four fingers in from the center of the neck. Push down there hard and fast, and the person will go limp breifly. great if they are standing, very effective in a grappling situation.)
    Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. (if I have put you on the ground, and you are reaching for a gun/knife, a quick kick to the temple will render you unconscious. Then I can bend down and take the gun from you)
    Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. (see above)
    Stomping a grounded opponent. (see above)
    Spitting at an opponent. (If you are coming at me with a knife, I spit in your face break your wrist and take your knife in the instant that you flinch. I am still alive, therefore I win.)
    Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury. (If I can draw you in by making you think I am injured, and then pounce on you as soon as you become over confident, I will do it.)


    note this rule:
    Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.

    If I am in a tournement, I will hold the agreed apon rules of that tournement as gosple because I am now decidedly engaged in a sport. Outside of the tournement, if I am defending my life our someone elses, I will do what I need to in order to win. I detest violence, however, once I have decided that it is required to stop a situation, and violence has been engaged, it will not be regulated by rules or reservation. My opponant will stop the actions which prompted my violence, he will be rendered unable to continue those actions, or I will be rendered imobile. There will be no middle ground there.

    A month ago, one of the people I'm helping to teach was attacked by an old aquaintance of hers. He had the intention to rape or molest her in some fasion. He weighed about 200lbs, she weighs about 135. He first punched her hard in the leg, then tried tackling her. The punch numbed her leg, and shocked her pretty good. However, from her training, as he came towards her, she stepped out of the way, grabbed his hair, and hammerfisted him in the back of the neck. He dropped to the ground, and she was able to get away.

    Had I taught her that hitting in the back of the head or grabbing hair was "against the rules", I seriously doubt she would have been able to get away.

    No, I would not survive in UFC. However, That's not my goal. I'm not planning on fighting in UFC. I am however, perfectly confident in my ability to protect myself, my family and others who may need it.

    In my opinion, I don't need to be able to beat a UFC fighter, as the chances of having to fight such an individual in the streets is low enough. And if I ever did, I would go for his knees. If he runs towards me with his arms up as you suggest, that means I have a clear shot to dislocate/break his knees. If that fails, then his eye/groin/clavicle/etc are all game assuming that I am still conscious after the tackle (I'm not a big guy).

    Remove the rules from the styles which UFC fighters tend to practice (mixed, focus on grappling), then I would agree with you. That style is very effective. However, by removing the UFC rules, I would no longer consider it to be "UFC style", but "mixed, focused on grappling" instead.
     
  22. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    2,762
    BigBlueHead

    there seems to be a little confusion there,
    when i talk of rules and doing things that do not come into them ,
    then that is in a tournament and is the normal type of expectations
    if you have ever fought in martial arts competitions you would understand what i was talking about
    its nothing to do with being clever enough to bend rules
    that is the complete wrong angle on the thinking involved in regard to what i was talking of

    basicly anyone who thinks that some tournament fighter is the best type of martial artist, needs to spend more time away from the tv in genral
    as the best martial artists will never be seen on tv entering any competitions
    that aside i am impressed to see someone of remmys skill involved

    and as far as defending your self in hand to hand combat in street fighting is concerned if you are too afraid to kill someone then you had better save yourself the trouble and live in a hole in the ground
    as riverwind said
    rules , no rules, whatever does not matter , winning is everything in violent attacks, no matter what it takes or who or how many you have to kill to do it
    it only takes one fall to to be killed or seriousely injured in certain situations
    if you were to value the offenders life above yours then you have some seriouse issues
     
  23. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

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    1,996
    Riple... I never said otherwise. I agree, street fighting is generally about protecting your life - which is incidentally why you try to stay out of it.

    What I'm saying is that people often like to play the "martial arts" card as if it makes you the master of the street fight, which it does not. This is something you often hear, it usually goes something like

    "Oh *name of boxer* is just a hack. Boxing's only a sport, whereas martial arts are a life-affirming and all-encompassing spiritual journey. I could wave my hand in his face, and then while he was dazed I would just wrap him up like a package because boxers can't really fight."

    This assumes a number of things:
    1) Whatever martial art you are partial to makes you into a fighting genius by virtue of its form alone (which it does not)
    2) In a street fight, a boxer will still follow the rules of boxing (which they won't)
    3) Technique will always win out over strength and speed (which is not the case)

    Since many martial artists don't necessarily train every day, do a lot of weight/endurance/speed training, or have the amount of the experience that a professional fighter does, it's rather foolish to discount the abilities of a career fighter, even in a "sport" like boxing, when it comes to a total no-rules brawl in the back alley behind the bar because he decided he didn't like your face.

    Consider, for instance, one of the Sumo guys. Fat, yeah, but what are you going to do to him? All he has to do is land a slap on you and you'll probably break, and this guy slaps people for a living. Maybe if you're really unlucky he'll pick you up and throw you a long way, which is one of his other career skills. In return, your flurry of gut punches will probably make him laugh. Maybe if you get lucky he's one of the old ones with bad ankles or something. On the other hand, I remember seeing Konishiki get thrown by Chanafuji a long time ago (Konishiki weighed something like 800 pounds, mind you) and he crashed in the stands a few meters away, and then got up like he'd just sat down or something.

    Sumo's a sport too, but if it was mortal combat with one of those guys I'd run like hell.
     

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