# Best Martial Art?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by airavata, Apr 30, 2003.

1. ### river-windValued Senior Member

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BigBlue man shows his wisdom again. I have to admit, I've found myself doing the "I've studied martial arts! I can do things you mear mortal can only dream of! bow before me ye fools! A-HAHAHA!" a couple times. I could take an NFL linebacker with my 145 lbs! I'll just flip over him and land on his shoulders. the I'll grab his ears and yank on them, screaming like a monkey! I RULZES!

Bah, still a mear self-absorbed human. Soft, ugly bag of mostly water, I am.

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We are going to have a guy come in and run a board breaking class on the 20th...my old master used to say "Practice your board breaking. You will be very prepared for when you are attacked by a flat tree." :m:

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3. ### contrarianRegistered Senior Member

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The best self-defense technique for avoiding violence altogether is talking. The vast majority of the time potentially dangerous situations can be defused verbally.

I think it's quite clear that for the early part of your career, grappling skills are most important. They are easier to master and train with when you are just starting out. For more difficult situations, like weapons and multiple opponents, you may need to add striking techniques. But, in general, success against these problems is at least partly dependent on the opponents making a mistake.

Cheers,

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5. ### VitalOneBannedBanned

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The best is Tai Chi, Xing Yi, or Ba Gua. THese are internal styles, so you can kill someone easily without using any force.

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7. ### dagr8n8Registered Senior Member

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Aikido - all the way defence is where it is a, you can be week and take on the strong, all you need is pritice.

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8. ### ripleofdeathRegistered Senior Member

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BigBlueHead
one thing i have noticed is that there are more people who start learning a martial art
in the desire to be a bad ass street tuff type person and onyl seem to keep the visits to the club for a year or two at the most then think they are a martial artist
funny and sad that is!

i always find a good guide to go by to judge if someone is a true martial artist is to
outline their philophical and artistic pursuits
if they have none then they are also most likely to lack any mental discipline also
and do not come into the catagory of a martial artist
its a fairly simple and accurate guide
a martial artist must create to be an artist
i strongly suggest reading Bruce Lee's thoughts on the defenition .. which i tend to agree with from the few books and thoughts from him and his students and family that i have read so far .. though they are few on the number out there that may talk of him or mention him i do not bother with anything but an orriginal source

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river-wind
egocentrism will only be a wall .. as you may be finding out and hopefully not the hard way
love the board breaking comment

contrarian
quote
But, in general, success against these problems is at least partly dependent on the opponents making a mistake.
--
that is why most people find real martial arts competitions boring!
unless it involves killing or brutal injurys or repeated beatings
VitalOne
Tai Chi is one of the close orriginal forms.. so it is like saying walking is good if you wish to run
it is possible that some might be able to run and not walk ..
but they do not stay up long and when they fall it is usualy most seriouse and lasting
dagr8n8
practice practice practice
a key to being good.. assuming the technique is correct and not flawed as many are
Aikido is what i think to be ideal for women or men wishing to start out in the martial arts, once they get past a certain age aikido is the only real option they have as a first learning style
it has been around for more years than a few others and not quite as much as a few of the orriginal base styles

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9. ### DjimbeRegistered Member

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David Mayes (and a couple of others ...)

If you ACTUALLY BELIEVE that The UFC PROVES something about the superiority/inferiority of any martial arts system then you REALLY need to Un**** yourself quickly .

The UFC :

It STARTS as a way for the Gracies to Market themselves to the U.S. \$ The Early UFC's have NO ONE that the Grappling community thinks is going to be any threat to the Gracie representative of the Moment (Royce) in them . NO Olympic Judo/TKD Champs , NO Thai Muay Thai Champions , NO Olympic Gold Medal Wrestlers , NO All-China Lei Tai Champs (in these Matches men get Maimed and Killed often) NO winners of the King Of San Da tournament , NO Title-Holding professional Boxers - or even decent Olympian amateurs , and no , the Senegali Wrestling Champion is nowhere to be found , either .

In FACT , in the early days of the UFC , the resident Idiot that was SUPPOSED to sound like he was some sort of bloody "Expert" on MA's , and was basically an infomercial-style Mouthpiece designed to teach us all "The Power Of Gracie Jiu Jitsu" didnt even know that JUDO was , in fact , NOT pronounced "JEW-DEW" as he REPEATEDLY stated it . And Judo HAS to be one of the three most Populat Martial Arts globally , with TKD and Tai Chi , if not THE Top in Popularity .

What DO we see in the ALL to Lauded "Early UFC's , before the Rules really favoured Grapplers" which are ALL too often Pointed to when someone brings up how hamstrung their system LEGITEMATELY would be by the current ruleset . We see that the ONLY person with SERIOUS Depth of training are the Gracies , and the people that slip under the Radar of the Gracies and the Promotion Team's Screeners . We see that Royce has 20+ years of Grappling Experience and he uses it on people . We see a few Surprises , and . AND we see that the peole with years of Experience that are in good Condition kick everyone elses asses .

You know what ELSE we see tho ? We see a couple of TKD (the Martial Art thats most often pointed to as being everything thats wrong with "Traditional MA's") guys kicking serious ass , Gary Goodridge (sp ?) being first among them . Lets not forget the Kempo Karate guys , and a friggin NINJA (UFC 3 'Champ' , in fact) , folks !

We ALSO get to see Royce , the "Golden Boy" being MAULED by Kimo , whom , well , frankly SUCKED at the time , and wasnt much more than a Piss-Poor B-Level Bodybuilder at the time with a few Months of Training that didnt have any Reach on Royce , and less than 50 lbs of Weight . The guy SERIOUSLY couldnt throw a Punch at the level of a First Year preteen Boxing student . Ad guess what ? Royce couldnt even WALK after the Matchup , which he supposedly "WON" !!! Really ? Because , Franlky , HE was the guy that was sent to Hospital ! Yes , he may have Hyperextended the lad's Elbow , but frankly , that wouldnt even have been up to the level of Damage that Kimo did to him . Pyrric Victory almost by DEFINITION . And frankly , its PATHETIC to count it as a "Victory" when your OPPONENT can go on fighting another Match having a Split Lip and looking Marginally winded , and YOU have to be CARRIED TO THE HOSPITAL by your Obi . Even a Grade School child would be able to tell you whom the REAL winner of the Fight was .

Nah , the UFC Teaches us a LOT , but its mostly about the benifits of Training in ANY Martial Art for a LONG time , and/or being a Bodybuilder in a Fight .

10. ### DjimbeRegistered Member

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Oh , a couple of quick things to Run down before they come up , and they ALWAYS do ...

1) Yes Nog Beat Bob Sapp via Submission ... and then spent a couple of days in the Hospital for his Trouble , while Sappy probably made another J-Pop Video and chewed up a couple of more Plushie Dolls that look like K-1 guys .

2) You CANNOT Grapple with broken fingers . It SOUNDS good , but you cant GRIP anything , and you cant Grapple if you cant GRIP . Its very simple . And though you may WISH to continue Fighting , your Tools , and therefore your Options , become VERY Limited VERY Swiftly .

3) you cannot PUNCH with Broken Fingers . Your hand requires STRUCTURE to make strikes have Impact & Transfer Power , and you need solid , whole Bones to make that happen . Yes , you DO .

4) Bruce Lee never won a Fight in his Life . No matter WHAT that stupid LYING Movie says . Not against anyone that has a NAME . Tell me about all the "Faceless Challengers" that you want , and Ill tell you how Im richer than Bill Gates . The guy was a Dwarf . Size MATTERS when you Fight .

4a) Being bigger (or having more Muscle Mass) =/= being slower . Not even a LITTLE . Dont even try it unless you have the Science to back it up .

Only the TRULY experienced Netizen will comprehend why these things may (read : almost always do) apply later .

11. ### DjimbeRegistered Member

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crap , I was ALMOST in bed , but I forgot this one ...

5) YOU are NOT Royce Gracie , and your <3 Years of "BJJ & Some Standup" classes 3X/Week for 3Hours/class dosnent give you his abilities .

5a) Replace above name with the "Star" from whatever system YOU do . Same Thing , mate .

12. ### spidergoatValued Senior Member

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Never lost one either! You would have to be insane to fight him.
Only if you're a stupid ass. O.K. it doesn't hurt, but If you see a short nerdy asian guy, watch out, they are the baddest! My friend (2nd degree black belt Hapkido) and his Korean master (master) are both strong as hell, short and skinny, and could drop anyone faster than you could blink. Or you could beat yourself up against their blocking. You have to watch out for these little guys, speed is everything, you don't need to be big, that's the ART of it. Of course, it takes a long time to get to this level.

Last edited: Feb 10, 2004
13. ### pragmathen0001 1111Registered Senior Member

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Wait a second, here. Didn't Jackie Chan put out some autobiography a couple years back where he mentioned a challenge he put to good ol' Bruce? I seem to remember Jackie saying that Bruce wasn't relying on all of the 'high-tech wizardry' of the 1970's to enhance his fighting abilities.

14. ### otheadpBannedBanned

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djimbe

i bet you're a stand up guy who got beat by a BJJ guy

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as someone who has done martial arts for 7 years and who's pretty familiar with UFC, let me point out these things
1) the first UFCs were with almost no rules. it was brutal, which was why they couldn't get any contracts with TV channels. later on they added gloves (grappling friendly??), disallowed kicking the guy's head when he's down, so they'd get deals. that's why they're actually making money right now and so many people know about them.

2) in the beginning, before everyone caught up with mixed training, there were specialists brought in. Judo specialists, an Olympic wrestler (Kevin Jackson), a K1 champion (Moe Smith) pure brawlers (Dave 'Tank' Abbot) and others.

3) the Gracies are not "resident idiots" as you say. they have a long history of fighters as i'm sure you know. they also have the open Gracie Challenge where anyone who thinks he can beat a Gracie is welcome to do so

4) Royce, who IMO looks like a little weenie (180 pounds, no muscles, no striking abilities...) proved himself in my eyes in the early days of the UFC, especially in that fight against the Kenpo guy (@ UFC 4 i believe.)

5) you think TKD would do so great in MMA competitions? all these guys do is kick high. they'd get thrown to the ground in less than a second and then the fight is over with an armbar in another second.

15. ### loafRegistered Member

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the best martial art sport = pukulan pencak silat and kung fu
pencak silat = indian kung fu we also use escrima's sword's bamboo stick's
and alot os other weapens.
and its realy affectief.

greets Loaf
from :m: holland :m:

16. ### river-windValued Senior Member

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2,671
Is pencak silat the style with the ribbon sword that's worn as a belt? unravel it, and you have a razor-sharp whip? I've seen a video of that, and one of my co-worker's grandfathers was a master with that belt-sword, but I don't know much about it.

17. ### river-windValued Senior Member

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Went to an American Kempo training camp this weekend. Sparring techniques, pressure point, knife techniques. Fairly basic stuff, but with some cool points here and there. like the three-point knock outs, and when Master Stewart knocked over 9 people from across the room. without touching them. using chi only. all at the same time. most of whom were selected because they were skeptical. 0_0

Still a chance that there was some power of suggestion involved, but man, they fell like logs.
I think his stuff was classified under ryukyu kempo (chinese base); the sparring was American Kempo (which is really boxing mixed with kung fu), and the knife fighting was a mixture of American Kempo, Philapino stuff, and the style of that British Special Forces guy who has over 300 recorded kills from WWII through Vietnam (name?). Some extremely nasty, nasty, violent, ugly, vicious, bloody stuff. Good to know, better to never use.

18. ### dr_spine_jrRegistered Member

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Djimbe: I agree with a lot of things that you are saying. Body mass is the limiting factor in most fights. Technique skill and training allow smaller people to gain some advantages in a fight. Yet still there will eventually be an upper limit that will be reached. If you are an averaged sized man say 5'10" weighing an average 180lbs. When you have to square off against someone who is 6'7" weighing 320 lbs. You will lose. Most but not all martial artists would probably die a miserable horrible death against the competitors in the MetRX Worlds strongest man contest.

19. ### dr_spine_jrRegistered Member

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In response to your other statements:

4) Bruce Lee never won a Fight in his Life . No matter WHAT that stupid LYING Movie says . Not against anyone that has a NAME . Tell me about all the "Faceless Challengers" that you want , and Ill tell you how Im richer than Bill Gates . The guy was a Dwarf . Size MATTERS when you Fight .

Bruce was never meant to fight in the ring. He was a street fighter from Hong Kong that developed a massive array of skills. His main claim to fame was that he was an absolute psychopath when it came to training himself. Anyone. I don't care who it is that trains as hard and as long as he did will do major damage in a fight. He doesn't have to beat everyone. He won't. Will he beat a larger than average percentage of the population. Sure.

20. ### contrarianRegistered Senior Member

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110
I think I will have to disagree with this, at least in part. Certainly, strength and mass are advantages, but so are speed, flexibility and a lower center of gravity. The contestants in the strongest man contests don't look like the most dangerous people I've seen(but they do look very resistant to damage). Being musclebound would be a severe detriment in most serious fights.

Cheers,

21. ### Bone SalvageRegistered Member

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I couldn't help but notice, earlier in this thread, that people were talking about "street fights" involving guns and that their was little in the way of martial arts that could counter this situation. I disagree. As would all of the officers who carry firearms, who themselves have been trained in how to disarm someone with a weapon. Samurai who walked around with swords all day, were also trained to deal with someone who might have grabbed their sword from them.

As to "the best martial art". One would have to wonder what it is the person intends to do. That is, are you interested in stopping the "attack" or the "attacker"? There are some ethics to self defense, or at least there can be, and besides in a "street fight" it could make more sense to just stop the threat and move on rather than getting too engaged in a messy situation.

So, shall I suggest Aikido? or at least the philosophy thereof.

Aikidoists don't fight in the UFC...

maybe that proves my point.

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22. ### dr_spine_jrRegistered Member

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The UFC and fights similar to it are accurate as far as fighting within the confines of rules. And as far as fighting one on one. Eye gouging is not allowed and therefore limits the ability of smaller faster fighters to level the playing field.

To really win in a combat environment. Without ethics, morality and legal limitation. You need speed, power, endurance, durability and, technique. Is there a best "style" of fighting.

No. Not really. The best trained fighter will normally win the conflict. IF he has trained properly. There is a dirty rumor that a good "street fighter" will beat a martial artist. If the martial artist were a "true martial artist" who dedicated his life to the art. Like a shaolin monk. There is no way that he would lose.

There is also the rumor that a grappler can take a traditional martial artist. Again I don't think so IF the martial artist has trained properly and is willing to use lethal techniques. Such as an eye gouge or, destroying the throat.

That would be where learing the appropriate technique comes into play.

The only limiting factor in a fight that is of real consequence is body mass. The top light weight boxing champion of wherever will probably not win in a fight with a man who is 350 lbs. It's just too much mass to work against.

So I guess the answer to the best martial art is "training hard"

Running for speed and endurance
Weight training for strength.
Working the heavy bag to increase explosive punching/kicking power
Working the Mook Jong (wooden dummy) to increase the durability of the arms and legs
Iron ring training for increasing the strength and power of the arms
Punching sandbags filled with lead pellet to toughen the hands and fists to impact.
Sparring live humanbeings from all different styles of fighting to gain a grasp of timing and distance.

I guess that as I read the question "What is the best Martial art?" it occurs to me that it's a question that is of no consequence. It doesn't matter if a person trains in the hypothetical "best system" if he/she has no intention of training to be the "best".

If a person were to train in their chosen discipline of fighting as though they were going to try to enter the Olympics, I would wager that they are willing to do what it takes to be the best. And that hard work is the best martial art anyone could ask for.
Sticking with a system of martial arts with a strong basic foundation.

IF the martial artist were a hobby martial artist who went to class 3x/week for 2 hours at a time. I am fairly confident that he would get his butt whompped on.

I can't stress this enough. It's not about style it's about training.

23. ### dr_spine_jrRegistered Member

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Read my last post. thanks