Before the big bang

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Mazulu, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand now. In the example, cleaning the room caused the person cleaning to convert energy from one form (fat, sugar etc) into heat. The heat still has some ability to do work because it is not evenly distributed. It could still be used in say a stirling engine to do work. But the fact that the stored energy in the fat or sugar was converted to heat and would eventually, if left alone, become evenly distributed. I guess the whole process is producing entropy. But I think that still means that cleaning or messing the room increases entropy.
     
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  3. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    You're welcome.

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    And yes, that's correct - any action that uses energy results in that energy being dispersed and no longer available - so entropy is increased. Cleaning OR messing produces the same result.

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  5. Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you are saying. In all the examples, the forward wave and the reflected wave are in superposition. They add together. At no time is any energy created. That is what I thought you were saying. That you were saying energy was being created somehow. Sorry if I misunderstood you.
     
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  7. Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    Hey, the only reason I read these forums it to learn. Sometimes I learn from smart people and other times I learn from (shall we say) counter examples.
     
  8. brucep Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,098
    It's complete nonsense. Backwards would be the light climbs out of the gravitational well [+] and then is reflected back [-]. Every aspect of lights natural motion through the gravitational field is described by GR. It doesn't include Mazulu nonsense.
     
  9. Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    Thanks for the info. BTW, I read your review of the Black Holes book that is your avatar. At least I think it was your review. It sounds like a very interesting read. Unfortunately I am not really up the mathematics it involves but maybe someday I will read it.
     
  10. brucep Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,098
    It's the best book on GR I've read and the easiest mathematically. Since the entire study is based on the metric solutions to Einsteins field equations you don't have to know differential geometry and tensors. Just calculus, algebra and Noether's principle of least action [principle of extremal aging as it's referred to in the text]. Once you've got that math you'll have no problem reading Exploring Black Holes. The derivatives and integrations are much simpler than what they ask you to do in a calculus text. The metric solutions to the field equations are so easy to work with. GR is so perfect and simple. Since I didn't do any of this in a classroom I learned SR and GR together.
     
  11. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    982
    I am sorry but I don't think a messy room or a clean room would have the same entropy. When you consider a person moving things around entropy could never define it properly. The part they left out in the bull in a china store is that after that happened they had to have someone come and clean it up. After that person cleaned the store it looked just like it did before the bull came through. It would then be as though time had reversed to put all the china back on the shelf in the proper place, but it didn't, someone just came and arranged it that way because people tend to try to keep things "disorderly".
     
  12. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    982
    I got that book, and I think I found a error in the first chapter. I think it got the equation for the proper distance wrong and it is actually the equation for the negative proper distance. I did the calculation of sigma being -(l/c)^2 = s^2 - t^2. Then the sample problem 2 was just a guestimate, started to lose interest in it there and it seemed like it is full of lies. Was expecting to learn something about general relativity and the curvature of spacetime but then it says that this type of mathmatics doesn't even really exist. I was really dissapointed. I only realized the proper distance was wrong because the length contraction equation is almost identical to the equation of the proper time except instead of a "l" there is a "tau" in it. So then there is no way (tau)^2 = t^2 - s^2 and (sigma)^2 = s^2 - t^2. The seperation has just switched places with the time variable and the other one of them is negative. It is just wrong.

    I think sigma should be (ct')^2 = t^2(c^2-v^2), I think it would be a lot easier equation to use. That is assuming that ct' is the proper distance. Or even, (sigma)^2 = c^2(t^2 - s^2) , if ct' is the proper distance.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  13. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    You're simply missing the main point: ANY expenditure of energy - making the room messy or cleaning it up OR whatever - brings about an increase in entropy.

    And I think perhaps you're also confusing a closed system with an open one. The room is an example of an open one as indicated by your statement "...someone come and clean it up." And since that person is not a part of the room, the system cannot be a closed one.

    I'd suggest spending a few minutes with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
     
  14. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    982
    Okay I think I get it now, when a hurricane comes and brings order to a population, people donate to the red cross and increases the amount of disorder or entropy.
     
  15. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    Well, something like that...

    Another less used measurement that people sometimes confuse with entropy is "Enthalpy." And that often leads to even more confusion.
     
  16. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    982
    There is also the butterfly effect. A flap of a butterfly's wings on one side of the planet could in turn create a hurricane on the otherside of the planet. Then a hurricane would be an increase in order, instead of an even distribution of air patterns. A turrent of air would have become focused on one area.
     
  17. Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    I have heard about this "butterfly effect" but did not think it was real. To cause a hurricane on the other side of the world would require the butterfly to be the size of a small country, perhaps as large as Luxembourg. But now I think maybe you are correct. I saw a documentary about a huge moth that attacked Tokyo some time back. President Obama should ask for the help of the Japanese since they have experience with such things. We must stop this butterfly before its wings can flap again.

    [video=youtube;Q_1hSHtCH8M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_1hSHtCH8M[/video]​
     
  18. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    982
    The butterfly doesn't have to be big, according to the theory you just have to wait a longer period of time in order for it to happen. Then this would only happen about once in the lifetime of the universe. So then there is no need to go out hunting for giant butterflies.

    I think gravity would prevent an increase in entropy. Say you had a bottle of water and then you poured out half of it. Then you closed the lid on it so that it wouldn't evaporate. Then you would just be left with a bottle of water that is half full. The water would stay on the bottom and the air would stay on the top. It would never evaporate into an even mixture of water vapor and air. Or even water and oil would never mix if it was left alone. Or even anything in the water that is boyant would remain that way and never sink. Or if you ever cleaned up your room you would realize that it was in more of a state of order.
     
  19. Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    But hurricanes happen quite often, not once in the lifetime of the universe. So there must be at least one giant butterfly. My intuition tells me that where there is one there has to be more. So I was thinking. Since it is on the other side of the earth from the hurricane, we kind of know the general location. We could get the astronauts on the space station to look for it. I would think that they would have already seen it if it was easy to see. I think it must be camouflaged. Like if it was sitting on an island it could be blue like the water around it. So we are starting to know more about how to find the thing. The problem will be how to fight it. It could be like the moth and have special powers. Deathray beams that shoot out of the eyes. And of course it can create hurricanes. That by it self is very powerful. Perhaps we could create a giant lizard thing to fight it, the way the Japanese did.
     
  20. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    982
    I think you are starting to get into territory where like you mentioned that you can't trust your intuitiion and your intuition is wrong. There are exceptions to every rule. Say you where playing marbles. The jacks and the marbles will not always be distributed evenly. You could end up with clumps of jacks here and marbles there. They wouldn't always hit the same way everytime.

    Say I posted the first five digits in numerical order.

    1,2,3,4,5

    If I posted them again entropy would say that they would always then move to disorder.

    2,4,1,3,5

    But of course, I could think no that is not right or the way I want it and then post them in numerical order again.

    1,2,3,4,5

    I just didn't like the order of the numbers so I just decided to put them back in order again...
     
  21. Mazulu Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,090
    Stress energy tensor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress–energy_tensor
    T_00 = energy density
    T_10,20,30 = momentum density
    T_01,02,03 = energy flux
    T_11,22,33 = presure
    T_12,13,23 = sheer stress
    T_21,31,32 = momentum flux

    Thermodynamics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_free_energy
    Internal energy \(U=(S,V)\)
    Enthalpy \(H(S,p)=U+pV\)
    Helmholts Free energy \(A(T,V)=U-TS\)
    Gibbs Free energy \(G(T,p)=H-TS\)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
    Entropy is a logarithmic measure of the density of states. The summation is over all the possible microstates of the system, and Pi is the probability that the system is in the ith microstate

    \(S = -k_B \Sigma_i P_i ln P_i\)

    From the article, On the Origin of Gravity and the Laws of Newton

    Eq 5-30 \(F_a = T \nabla_a S = - m e^\phi \nabla_a \phi\)
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  22. Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    That is very interesting. Hey, I got this thing I gotta go do. Why don't you chat with Prof.Layman till I get back.
     
  23. Mazulu Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,090
    After thinking about it, the cyclical universe is a stupid idea. Even after a google number of years (10^100 years), you're supposedly left with nothing but photons. AND THEN!!! AS IF BY MAGIC!!!! Bang!!!!

    So where did this cyclical universe come from? Did it come out of the ass of the flying spaghetti monster?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012

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