Bah Bah Black Sheep

Does it matter? The ideal is based on the observations, multiculturalism does not work in all countries and so it is better to give it up when constitutional amendments have to be written in for towers in a country that has four of them.

Is it necessary for all countries to be accepting and global? Not if it makes the people fearful and resentful, surely.

 

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It's been working in Switzerland for a very long time.

Where, in your opinion, has multiculturalism worked better than in Switzerland?

 

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Why would they look bad? They have spoken what they wanted, not what is Swiss architecture, not what is required but what they do not want. And they do not want minarets because it represents Muslims.

Perhaps there should be another referendum, do they want mosques in Switzerland? How about just skip to the last chapter and see if they want Muslims in Switzerland?

If they don't do they not have the right to say that? Why does it always have to be one size fits all?

There are plenty of Muslims states who don't want other cultures or religions, why can't other states have a say about not wanting Muslims?

 

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Falsely accusing us of making it "difficult" for Muslims to pray is unacceptable. You're doing this intentionally to manipulate the users on this board, and I do not agree with this attitude of yours.
You know, I don't have a problem that you demonise anything that concerns the West, but I really dislike it when people PURPOSEFULLY post dishonest information. In this instance, you've lost all credibility.

Keep on blowing things out of proportion with your lies because that's obviously all you can.

 

I wonder if Muslim attitudes towards the spires of churches and synagogues would be any better in--say--Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen or Kuwait? I've yet to hear any outcry from the patently hypocritical Muslim world over the [greater than anything Europe does to Muslims] poor treatment of ethnic Jews, Muslims and other religions.

Waaaaah! Switzerland doesn't want minarets. Come calling when Switzerland starts treating Muslims the way Muslims treat Christians. Then we can have a conversation. Until then, seriously, spare us your hypocritical grief.

~String

 

I said mosques are granted permission with great difficulty and they are. How long do you think is the average time taken to get permission for a mosque? Also how many mosques are there in Switzerland compared to the Muslims? Whats the ratio?

I recall the bitter controversy over the building of new mosques. I believe there are 400,000 Muslims and 90 mosques, is that correct?

@string:

Are the Muslims in Switzerland from any of those countries? Last I heard they were mostly Turks or Yugoslavians. Or should all Muslims in the world be automatically graded by the Saudis?

 

That seems to be a desired outcome, by at least some Islamic strategists.

And there are fundie counterparts in the Western countries, ever ready to do their part.

 

Show me a tolerant, predominately Muslim nation, that treats women, gays and all religious minorities with the same rights and privileges as Muslims enjoy in the same country? Switzerland runs circles around every Muslim nation on Earth in this arena. You have boasted about how great various Muslim nations are, and now conveniently forget that Switzerland is a bastion of freedom compared to them. You remain casually silent when the subject of Iran treating women as second-class citizens, but when the opportunity arises to critique a western nation, you hop on-board with aplomb.

It's not so much that I don't understand your issues with Switzerland; it's just that I find your cries a bit exaggerated, especially considering how you can't even critique significantly worse behavior in Muslim nations. That's hypocritical and it's your usual MO.

~String

 

Well Switzerland is no longer a bastion of "freedom" since "freedom" is defined as being just like everyone else here. By that criteria, Saudi Arabia is a bastion of freedom. If you look, talk, and act like a Swiss thats not freedom, since in Saudi Arabia it will also be assimilation to look, talk and act like a Saudi

 

Yes. They're just like Saudi Arabia. They have architectural limitations on Mosques, so they are EXACTLY like another nation that expels Christians and Jews and executes apostates.

See, SAM, this is where you lose credibility. You fail to address your own hypocrisy and then post a blatantly deceptive statement.

Note: You've failed to provide a single predominately Muslim nation who compares to Switzerland in freedom.

~String

 

Essentially what the Swiss are saying is you are free to practise your religion so long as you assimilate in our society and don't look visibly like a foreigner. In other words, if there is no minaret on the mosque, no adhan five times a day, no veil, no Islamic customs followed in public, no overy display of religiosity then we are happy to have you here.

Thats exactly what the Saudis want. Except they prefer it if you follow their culture and not make overt displays of your own religion or culture.

Many Christians and Hindus pray in Saudi Arabia too, they just don't do it in public.

The other major difference is that the Swiss voted on it. This is what a majority of them want.

If the Saudis had to vote, I'm not sure if the results would look the same. This is essentially what one guy [or one family] in Saudi Arabia wants

 

But that's an absurd criteria. As fallacious as this decision is, it doesn't mean that Switzerland - and this is Switzerland we're talking about here, I might remind you - is somehow committed to a society-wide process of repression and victimization of people of other faiths or cultures. That is utterly ridiculous, but you trot the point out in a line-up with the likes of Iran, which goes around arresting women walking down the street in jeans, or Saudi Arabia, which is the unabashedly most brutal nation in the world on citizens of minority religions. (You like to cite your fab times in ye Olde Kindgom sans repression, but never once have deigned to respond to my clarification that you weren't a citizen of Saudi Arabia. Big difference. You might also try to take a shot at becoming a citizen of the Maldives if you aren't Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives#Judiciary)

So, anyway: I appreciate that you care more about this thread because it involves a) Europeans, which you despise and b) your co-religionists, which you clearly do not despise. But for Myuu's sake, at least come clean and admit your basic predilection. Honestly.

Best,

Geoff

 

Except, the Swiss don't allow men to kill their wives, brothers to honor-kill their sisters, they don't execute those who convert and they don't force women to cover their bodies while denying them the right to vote, drive or own property and in turn provide every citizen and equal vote, specific enumerated rights, don't use torture and allow dissidents to protest the government without fear of beheading.

But, yes, besides those points, they are exactly the same.

~String

 

See, this is where you are a liar. Native Saudi's are forbidden to be anything other than Muslim. Foreign workers are permitted to practice their native religions.

~String

 

Thats what one guy wants yes.

 

Actually, this law doesn't even go that far.

On pain of death or imprisonment. While in Saud, did you try out the jails too, for the complete cultural experience?

Until the Saudis vote, we won't know; then again, it has resemblance to Iran, Hamas in Palestine and everyone else's government. So odds are it's just a teensie bit more extreme than the political establishments of those nations also, which are driven by the radical proportion of their populations.

 

Exactly, they are all states which have been under western control or sanctions or interference. So this is what the west wants there

Maybe Europe could do a quid pro quo. Quit making Muslim countries into client states and send the Muslims there.

 

I'm sorry: Iran and the Maldives have? And this is why they've gone more radical: to show them Yanks?

 

They've been under economic sanctons since they threw off the western puppet installed after the coup that destroyed their democratic government. You think that may play a role?

Fact is, there is no European government overthrown, sanctioned or under military threat from any Islamic country and Europe has been playing fast and lose with them with real Machiavellian intent to have a puppet or managed occupation to ensure full control over their assets. So really all the bluster about "freedom" rings very very hollow.

But seeing all the fear and longing from the Swiss, Dutch, Danish, German, French and British, perhaps they might consider swapping their evil Islamic populations for their benevolent puppets.

 

And the Maldives, then? Egypt? Morocco? Tunisia? Saudi Arabia? Malaysia? Indonesia? The Sudan?

Non-sequitur.

As hollow as an Islamicist decrying corruptive Western influences on domestic policies towards minorities in Islamic nations. Except to damn the minorities.