Babies are born athiests or theists

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by S.A.M., Mar 18, 2009.

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  1. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    We are obviously not born as open books.
     
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  3. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    But what is spiritual advancement and how can it be measured?


    One way I can think of is like this:
    'In a day, a person has X number of intentions.
    X is made up of K and F.
    K is the number of intentions aimed toward acting in line with God's instructions.
    F is the number of intentions aimed toward acting in line with the instructions of the false ego.
    Spritual advancement is when K increases toward X, and F decreases toward 0.'

    But given that X goes into hundreds in a day, trying to keep track is ... well, difficult and impractical as counting your intentions would probably keep you busy 24/7 with no time left for anything else. So what use is there of such a measuring system that cannot be practically or precisely applied?

    Bottomline, a casual observation says that such a thing as 'spiritual advancement' exists, and unless those who are spiritually advanced were already born that way, there must be some way to advance, which implies a course of practice, checkpoints, goals, reviews, passing tests, and such.

    But perhaps this issue is already too specific for this forum - although it is in line with the title of this thread.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2009
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  5. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    I'm not sure how this relates to your assertion of something being afoot if "we're the best god can come up with"

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  7. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Things that run parallel to spiritual advancement is an interesting topic. There is one book ("Madhurya Kadambini" by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur .... I think) that I found quite good. It is written in the context of the 9 stages of bhakti (sraddha to prema), so if you are not familiar with that, its probably worth reading Bhakti rasamrta sindhu (commonly known as "nectar of devotion) by rupa gosvami from around the same era.

    Here's a good summary link



    In short, the idea is that intentions gradually become more "K"-like (as you put it) according to the degree that god becomes tangible.


    Perfection by practice (or sadhana siddha) culminates in spontaneity so a good thing to be introspective of is how spontaneous am I in spiritual life.

    As with any value based self assessment, its always good to have someone who is more advanced than themself.
    For instance, if I want to know if I am a good parent, I will get a more accurate reading if I have an actual good parent before me so I can make a comparison.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  8. glaucon tending tangentially Registered Senior Member

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    Is this discussion still on topic?
    Seems to me that it's moved off...
     
  9. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Are babies born atheists or theists?

    How can this be addressed without addressing whether there are 'degrees of theism' and how they come about?
     
  10. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I know of NoD, I've read some of it online, but it's too impractical there. I'll see if I can get it in book format sometime soon.


    Thank you for the link.
    The Different Stages in Bhajana-kriya - tell me about that! They all seem to apply to me.


    For example, if I sneeze, stumble, or someone yells at me - what is my first thought?


    I agree, that can be good. But what when the more advanced ones barely ever have time for us!
     
  11. glaucon tending tangentially Registered Senior Member

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    As for 'how they come about?' I would agree that it's relevant.
    As for 'degrees of theism', I'd say that's another topic unto itself.

    In any case, it seems to me that the thread has become a discussion on Eastern philosophy. This, in and of itself is fine, but again, while perhaps relevant here, not quite the focus of the discussion per se.

    I'll keep an eye on things and see how it goes. If the thread continues as it has been, I'll most likely close it.
    Of course, either of you are free to begin a new thread topically different....
     
  12. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Signal
    I agree

    For me computers are more effective tools of multi-tasking. If I want to spend quality time on something I have to do it with a book.
    hehe

    Yes its certainly the common ground of many of us.

    Commentators say that going through the different stages is smooth sailing except for two points where one runs the risk of getting caught up for many lifetimes. The first one is sraddha (or having the faith to even begin the process) and the second is anartha nivritti (or coming to the position of actually removing all that is useless in the heart - As even many adroit atheistic criticisms are all to happy to point out, there are clear indications of impurities having the opportunity of running parallel with theistic practices).

    SO to bring it back to the whole baby thing and the OP - we are all born at a certain "starting point" according to our previous level of spiritual advancement (IOW unlike karma, or piety and sin, spiritual advancement is a constant - if we finish off at 2%, we start at 2% next time around)

    yes that is one way.

    Another is to see how much enthusiasm I have for the performance of spiritual practices (such as sravanam, kirtanam, etc ) - generally in material life we have great spontaneity for hearing our pastimes chanted and gratifying our senses, so we all have a yardstick we can measure these things by.

    its not so much about quantity of time but quality of time.

    Potentially we can associate with a person for a few moments and that can have a lasting impression for our entire life.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2009
  13. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    IF there is reincarnation, a baby is yet a baby with a baby brain & not yet exposed to god belief in that lifetime.

    What does reincarnation have to do with theism???
     
  14. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    The general idea is that we take birth as a reflection of what we desire and what we deserve .... so we are all riding with quite a long history.



    quite a lot
    Even in some early christian philosophers (origen)
     
  15. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    That's 1 theory/belief but it says nothing about my comment.



    I don't know why I was foolish enough to think you might answer the question.
     
  16. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    it says that there are other opinions about reincarnation, for a start ....


    you might have to invest a bit more time in clarifying your questions if you want to get answers to them
    :shrug:
     
  17. glaucon tending tangentially Registered Senior Member

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    Regardless of whether or not the reincarnation question may be germane, let s try and stay a little tighter on topic here.

    You guys all are intelligent enough to know when we've gone a tad tangential....
     
  18. Will.T Registered Member

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    We are born as a creation of God. It's a gift. The gift of life. It is wonderful? But when we are born we are immediatally faced with choices. I believe we begin to see the good in life and the bad. Both God and satan are at work with us. But children have extra care. They are pretected by God because of their innocense. For example in the Bible Jesus said that it would be better for someone to tie a millstone around his neck and go drown his ownself in the sea than to lead one of his little ones astray. Hope this is the answer you where looking for. God bless....
     
  19. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    1 must be alive to be given anything. Life is not a gift.
     
  20. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    Exactly my point. You are perfect proof that either there is not god or he is an imbecile.
     
  21. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Er.... no.
     
  22. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    So what about all those babies that die each year ? God was too busy ?
     
  23. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Not really, most of us already know the Sunday school fairy tale version. Thanks anyway.
     
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