me eliding. Do you really reject them on the grounds of utility? Now you have heard the theory, do you reject it because it is not useful - and how did you absolutely determine that, by the way, what if the use only kicks in after a couple of years of experiencing things that way, when suddenly you are joyful, kind and hysterically productive. as far as being a part of your mind and don't exist (xternally). Isn't there a thrid option - apologies for the tangent - that I am a part of your mind AND I have independent existence. I am, here, proposing a more intimate and less contingent reality. I feel like I don't have to choose between always trusting my sense of 'what is' and deciding all I am in contact with is what seems. I also notice a progression toward where my sense of what is is getting more accurate. (I obviously cannot convince you of this, but I am trying to show how I live and where I differ. I do not hold the idea of tentativeness as a worthy goal or qualification over myself. I used to do this more. I think so. And I do not see our positions as so far apart. I greatly appreciate that you are willing to draw a line in the mental sand and say, here I assume - even if you base this on utility, which I don't think I do, but I will have to check. I am trying to make a case for not having a systematically placed line. I am assuming I hit the real and notice it sometimes, even if this does not mean I am always right. I think this is essentially true in any system, even if it tends to be about meta-positions. Still: (only?). Well, the criteria and ability to notice them seems again to be based on recognizing what is not what seems. I see no reason to hold this certainty back one line in a meta position. I see reasons to be cautious, but I am a pretty cautious person. I couldn't understand your paraphrase so I'll try my own. I think that sometimes deciding to shift from trusting the ability to know and act on what is to take a step back - or two - and treat things more tentatively as 'it seems to be' can be the result of being treated cruelly. "It only seems like he is treating me like shit, but I maybe I didn't really listen last night when he talked about work." says the battered woman who was abused as a child. And in this extreme example let me point out that her tentativeness about ascribing 'it is' is not quasi in any way. It is an absolute choice with physical consequences. Tentativeness is as hardwired to the world as any other position. And again. I wish some people looked at their 'it is' and tried to see it more as 'it seems' and others I wish would move in the other direction. Excellent. I think this is one of the roots of the issue. How can we be certain without being like the assholes? And there they are wandering around 'proving' that certainty is a bad tack. I really think this is a core issue. Of course you called them pricks and not people who seem like pricks and I am damn glad you were not one layer back on that one. I think it is important what we do not what we think we ought to do as far as epistemology - here. There is our official epistomology and then there is the rest of us. For me it important to unify - which is different from demanding consistancy. I want these parts to be defragmented. You tentatively made your way into is at least twice I can conclude. (I first wrote 'seemed' your way, but that sounded vulgar) If one of them were psychic in a lab the scientists would suddenly say that psychics 'are'. They are being influenced by what is. There is a connection. The letter gets though, whatever the storm. Their arm is long enough to reach through the mists of seeming and grasp the real. (and so do you and I every day. I trip about once a week, but otherwise my feet find that ground where it is. For them what seems to be true is more likely to be what is. There what seems overlaps and can even be called what is in some cases where the % is high enough for this to be practical - this last word choice propaganda. I'm arbritrary in what I respond to after a bit. No criticism intended by what I ommitted or did not respond to. I appreciate the dialogue we are having here. It is streamlining and making conscious certain decisions I have made and experiences I've had. This seems to be a good thing.