Australian Bush Fires

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by RainbowSingularity, Dec 31, 2019.

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  1. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-50962728

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    RainbowSingularity, Jan 1, 2020
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  3. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    RainbowSingularity, Jan 1, 2020
    #22

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  5. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    You are still blaming victims..

    What is wrong with you?

    It's as if you can't help yourself.. Coloured font, big images aren't going to save you now. They just point to something pathological.

    People, when faced with nowhere else to go, will take every step necessary to protect themselves and if that means getting in the water in the middle of a firestorm, then that is what they will do. Families have done it before here in Australia and it was the only reason they survived. Those thousands of people had a wall of volunteer firemen and women trying to create a wall of water to keep them safe and protected. When they were told to get in the water, it was because it would have been deemed the only safe place for them at that given time. I am fairly certain they have a better idea of how to survive a bushfire than keyboard warriors like you do.

    Again, victim blaming.

    Firstly, the internet is the only way they are able to get updates when it is up. We get text messages about where the fire is and links are sent to us via sms with instructions. We get them each time there is a fire in the near vicinity. One will alert us to an emergency in the area, then we may get a watch and act (in other words, keep your phone nearby) with a link to follow about what to do and how to prepare and more information about the fire.. If it worsens, we then get a text telling us to prepare to leave (which means make your final preparations to evacuate), and if it is heading your way, the text message will be "Leave Now" with instructions of what road is safe and where to evacuate to.

    So before you start mouthing off about using internet and people having their phones taken away, the only reason people survived is because they had mobile phones with internet access.

    Secondly, internet access is also how people are able to touch base with family and friends and find out where people are and if people need to be declared as missing.

    A lot of these areas are not that remote. They are thriving towns.

    Evacuation shelters will usually have representatives there.

    You don't really know how any of this works here, do you?

    What?

    Are you for real?

    Again, victim blaming.

    Mallacoota relies on tourism and campers during the holiday season. And it is not an expensive area. Far from it. You know nothing about the area. At all. And even if there were no tourists, the result of these fires would have still been the same.

    Yes. And because they did, we were able to know they were safe and well.

    Sure, you do all of that with thousands of people in a matter of minutes.

    And unable to get hit by fire? In a bushfire in Australia? With ember attacks that can start fires miles ahead of the main fire front? Which is how these bushfires spread so fast and far...

    Please stop talking nonsense.
     
    Bells, Jan 1, 2020
    #23

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  7. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    We are talking about thousands of people. Even without the tourists, Mallacoota has over 1600 residents..

    You expect them to gather all of their flammable liquids and put them in a field - where it's so dry and hot, that the dirt is catching fire, and where everything is brown and dead so it's highly combustive already, possibly resulting in leaks into said parched and fire prone dirt which would then lead to issues of contamination and increased fire risk in the ground..?

    Are you insane?

    As someone who has received those horror text messages in the past about bushfires.. Let me tell you how this usually goes..

    You will more often than not have only a few minutes to "prepare to leave".. It is why in bushfire season, those of us who live near bushland, have our grab bags ready, all of our documents saved to clouds and/or memory sticks, etc..

    The only things you have time to do is to grab people and pets, turn sprinklers on, douse the house with water and then get everyone in the car when that "leave now" message comes through.

    For the people in Mallacoota, they were too busy trying to protect life, livestock and buildings, to set up this ridiculous scenario/plan you have set up for thousands of people.. What? You think it's just fire?

    Before the fire front arrives, you have ember attacks, which start spot fires everywhere. So when those hit, you have to be outside, with the hose, wetting everything down. Because everything is so dry, it explodes in flames in minutes. If you do not do this, everything goes whoosh and people die.

    So no, you don't have time to run around with a ledger registering people at boat ramps and organising hundreds, if not thousands of people into boats to get them to where you believe fires can't reach them up the beach.. This would be hilarious if it was not so goddamn ridiculous and we weren't talking about real people's lives.

    There was no evacuation because the roads were closed due to fire and there is a giant frigging sandbar at Mallacoota that makes crossing it by boat nearly impossible at night with low visibility.

    Would this be before, during or after the ember attacks?

    For 4,000 people?

    And what coast guard?

    The surf life saving "boat" would be an inflatable if that.. So shall they move thousands of people 2x2?

    To this apparent sandpit that you think is somehow or other away from the fires - while ignoring the fact that fires can start so easily and were because of embers...?

    So not only do these thousands of people have to collect all flammable liquids and pile them up into a field and then somehow or other cover it up with sand or dirt, they also have to find a spot that cannot be hit by embers or jumping flames or the weather system that had been created by the fire and was firing dry bolts of lightning, moving hundreds, if not thousands of children in boats to this magical fire free spot with water and all the food, set up tents by the shoreline... During a bushfire, where you have minutes to evacuate..

    My advice, stop talking. This is real life. Not a movie.

    Again, what coast guard?

    Children were not in boats by themselves - those who managed to get into boats, were there with their parents..

    You are talking even more rubbish now..

    If the residents of Mallacoota tried to do even 1/4 of what you suggested, they'd all be dead.

    Secondly, visibility was down to a few yards. They would not have been able to see people self evacuating and if you think they should be stopping to register with someone standing there in the middle of ember storms, with dry lightning from storm clouds that formed literally by the fires, with a massive bushfire bearing down and close enough that you can hear it roaring and daytime has turned to night when you could actually be getting yourself and others to safety and getting off the roads quickly so that fire trucks can get through without hindrance..

    Firstly, children weren't.

    Secondly, they clearly had to "escalate to that level" of saving their lives because they were told to get in the water firemen and women who were there.

    So who should they listen to? People trained to deal with this? Or some fool on the internet who is victim blaming and writing up a movie scenario for how to survive a bushfire?
     
    Bells, Jan 1, 2020
    #24
  8. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...on-boat-in-mallacoota-allison-marion/11835512

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    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-31/man-films-video-from-boat-outside-mallacoota-under/11834218

     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
    RainbowSingularity, Jan 1, 2020
    #25
  9. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    fyi
    i realise your a mod not a IT help desk person

    if the govt wanted they could simply order the telco to lock out all web access and have only Red Cross web site & selected SMS services running.
    a stripped down web site that has basic bulletins on it.

    one of the problems with human nature(which also helps the species survive psychologically) is the ability to ignore dangerous things and terrible events.
    the false security idea that people invest into their cell phones allowing them to switch off to thinking about danger constantly allows them an ability to not go completely feral & stark raving mad.
    it also has knock on effects where it reduces the number of civilians who think they need to walk around with guns all the time for personal protection.
    which... in turn reduces mass shootings and homicides

    there is no excuse for irrational risks in dangerous situations
    there is only 2 directions
    1 is towards higher risk
    the other is
    away from higher/escalating risk

    prevent escalation
    maintain equilibrium of risk
    reduce risk
    prevent risk

    statistically only a very small fraction of people think in a manner that preserves life
    the vast majority of people who are also a tiny fraction must be taught
    training
    fire drills
    evacuation drills
    first aid coarses
    etc etc etc ...

    "because emotion" Verses death ... = death

    the human species loves its drugs/addictions
    food(sugars saturated trans fats MSG strange animal parts & endangered species)
    alcahol
    uppers/downers etc etc
    behaviour routines ...(going camping in a fire storm with the children)

    as the Sydney spectator said "life must go on" about the fire works display

    personally i am an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff
    and a park bench & picnic table at the top with a sign saying mind the cliff
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
    RainbowSingularity, Jan 1, 2020
    #26
  10. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    the desire to attach grief and negative emotion to people & objects to transfer/externalise is very common
    some might say normal(mandatory for most people to deal with psychological issues)

    when did you feel the need and carry out the attachment of positive emotions to me ?

    say when to start being balanced ...

    moving on

    reports now saying Saturday is expected to be a higher danger risk

    Mallacoota is expecting a Frigate to arrive in the next hour or soo to start evacuating people
     
    RainbowSingularity, Jan 1, 2020
    #27
  11. davewhite04

    davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

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    No coverage at all on the uk news.
     
    davewhite04, Jan 2, 2020
    #28
  12. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    Pretty sure they aren't ignoring anything...

    And again, victim blaming and shaming..

    If you live near the bush, you are expected to have a mobile phone as that is how you are alerted regarding bushfires or other emergencies..

    Where I live, near dense bushland and where we get regular bad storms, we get all of our notifications regarding fires and storms via our mobile phones. And we then alert neighbours, etc, who do not have mobile phones due to age, etc..

    Please stop talking about something you don't know or understand.

    They were instructed by the fire crews who were there, to get in the water.

    Again, I think the firemen and women who were there know more about how to survive a fire than keyboard surfers like you. Part of the fire emergency plan is get in the water if the town goes up. That is the same for all coastal towns. Having stayed in these towns before, that's what people do.

    And again, if they had implemented even a 1/4 of what you said they should have done, the number of deaths would have skyrocketed because no one in their right mind would put flammable liquids all in one spot, on a field that is flammable to begin with because it's so dry, and then cover it with sand - taking precious resources in the form of people, to do something like this, just as no one in their right mind would assume that a tent with wet towels when the temperature is over 40 degrees celsius would provide safety in an ember attack with wind that are blowing hot at over 70km per hour.

    They implemented their bushfire survival plan. They did as they were instructed, which was to get to the water and then get in the water to protect themselves.

    Stop victim blaming and shaming. And stop talking about something you clearly know nothing about.

    The only emotion I am expressing is absolute disgust at people such as yourself who see fit to blame victims of a horrendous event, as that even was happening and suggesting they were somehow or other being irresponsible by keeping their kids safe and doing what they were instructed to do.. Your persistence in doing it points to it being something pathological.

    As for the child steering the boat. His mother was in the boat with him, his mother took the photo. As a local, he would know those waterways better than you would.

    Stop being so judgmental and blaming people doing everything they could to keep their kids alive.

    Yes. They are trying to get thousands of people out before conditions worsen. Some will be staying with plans in place, but they are trying to get the majority out as quickly as possible. Mallacoota is not the only town with survivors and people in distress on that stretch of coast. They need to get the majority of all of them out. In NSW, they opened up some of the roads to try to get as many tourists out as possible before the weekend and conditions worsen.
     
    Bells, Jan 2, 2020
    #29
  13. TheFrogger

    TheFrogger Banned Valued Senior Member

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    Hey there. WOW! Those fires are MASSIVE!!!
     
    TheFrogger, Jan 2, 2020
    #30
  14. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    wrapped up in BREXIT and the right wing politicians do not want to be seen agreeing with any climate change ideas.
    more so when those ideas tend to sound very similar to European union regulations which was seen as a main point of opposition to move the UK public toward seeking BREXIT.

    with the existing fire that has created charcoal beds which will burn easily and very hot ...
    should the conditions spark another fire event in those areas, they may be harder to control.

    such a vast area people evacuating must travel quite a distance.

    no easy task
    this is going to really test the best of those in civil defense, fire & defense forces who train for these type of things.

    given the very large area, a national response may be required to connect the infrastructure mechanisms to support the evacuation point destinations and long haul routes of evacuation.

    coastal marine radio may need extra resources as it may become the default communications for civilian responders and transport logistic notification of people

    i would probably look at requisitioning a couple of passenger cruise ships to station off shore to use as floating evacuation points

    disembark all passengers at an international air port
    ask 2 large banks & 2 of the largest insurance company's to come on board and assist with fantastic branding opportunity to help pay costs for the cruise ships staff wages etc...
    Government can pay for the lease cost and the travel insurance(partnered with the government) can pay for the flights home for the passengers disembarked(or to their next destination).
    military staffing facilities manage the ships passengers with crew assisting under the captain and the Navy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    RainbowSingularity, Jan 2, 2020
    #31
  15. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    What?

    The Government won't even pay for fire fighting aircraft that are currently lying dormant in northern hemisphere countries and you think they are going to fund two cruise ships to use as rescue vessels and to house those who have lost their homes?
     
    Bells, Jan 2, 2020
    #32
  16. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    Dozens missing ...

    so i heard 1 very short comment on the news early yesterday which was then repeatedly very briefly somewhere else

    that 17 people were missing ...

    now i see they are saying dozens missing
    i expect there will be quite a few people whom have moved to other locations and friends may list them to non officials as missing.
    this is normal in evacuation events.

    1 member of a family may list the entire family as missing while they are safe and well hundreds of kilometers away watching tv in someones lounge etc ...

    or more likely, camping somewhere staying off grid.(assuming there was any grid where they are which possibly there is not)

    Dear Bells, i am a liberal Social Democrat
    which means i support center left mixed market economy pro individual freedoms & private land ownership along with collective community rights to self protection & self governance through a national collective of liberal human rights.

    if we started listing all the things the government is not doing.
    we would become the governments patsy as the conversation becomes marginalised by chaos and anti constructive discourse.

    if everyone is running about waiving their hands in the air yelling "oh-my-god" then the ignorant dick-heads take control through collective ignorance and bullying.


    protesting and speaking up is critical
    but the bulk of the voters want to hear people saying their own ideas about how to fix the problems, otherwise the sociopath narcissists play their corporate psychopath games and use the peoples ignorance to line their own egos and bank accounts.

    i am well aware the Australian government has been trying to hide behind the curtains as the society swing between socialist concepts like compulsory super and human rights and liberal corporate policy and capitalism.

    collective social responsibility is quite big in Australia
    in-spite of the voter leaning toward a business model of anti society capitalism moral dictatorship economic ideology(rich elitist user pays people).

    Australia doesn't need to have its own BREXIT.
    (if you do not understand what i am talking about then your head is not in the game)
    (what do i expect the prime minister to do?, as little as possible to avoid voter backlash)

    but then who selected him because of his ability to manage and run things like this ...
    (i do not want to participate in the thread becoming a flaming point for all the things the right wing government is doing wrong or not doing)
    anywho

    missing people reports...
    i hope these get sorted as quickly as possible.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    RainbowSingularity, Jan 3, 2020
    #33
  17. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    "Cripps Family"

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    RainbowSingularity, Jan 3, 2020
    #34
  18. LaurieAG

    LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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    It is currently Friday evening in Australia. Around 1pm today I was driving with my brother and his son and he received a txt message from his ex wife who is currently on a property in the Monaro region of NSW. The message said that they had been instructed to evacuate this morning but the roads were blocked so they were implementing other aspects of their evacuation plan. Her current partner has close friends in the RFS.

    (1) Evacuate - not possible
    (2) Stay on their property and monitor the fire(s) location and direction via the local RFS radio channel.
    (3) If the fire moves towards the property overnight go to the nearby RFS station where a locals bulldozer is currently clearing all trees for a distance around the RFS station to act as a fire break for a temporary evacuation center for the local community members who are trapped.
    (4) If the property is still unburnt by 9am tomorrow (peak danger period) morning the bulldozer will be be used to remove all trees and create a fire break around the property.

    Also, most older Aussies know that you wet a cloth or towel etc and put that over your head if you have to go in the water to escape a fire. Secondly, the RFS people are trained to soak their fire blankets, find a ground depression out in the open, and cover themselves up with the blanket if they are caught by a fire and cannot escape.
     
    LaurieAG, Jan 3, 2020
    #35
  19. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    I hope they stay safe.

    The RFS vehicles also heve spray and water flow features to reduce the chances of those vehicles burning, if that is required as a last resort.

    Take towels and wool blankets or clothes with them to douse with water as well..

    Exactly! Those who went into the water were told to by the RFS, who knew what they were doing.

    People carrying on about how they were idiots and victim blaming and shaming for taking these actions do not understand that they knew what they were doing and the RFS who gave those instructions are trained in bushfire survival.
     
    Bells, Jan 3, 2020
    #36
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  20. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    why is the government not calling in more air craft water tankers ?

    the ADF has black hawks that should be able to land in remote areas and evacuate residents.

    the government should have already asked the ADF to create a command post for air rescue evacuation with a fleet of black hawks being brought in.

    the black hawks can unload on the naval vessels off shore or on the cruise ships that should be on their way to sit out to see of the naval vessels as civilian evacuation points.

    the big cruise ships can house 2000 people up to 4000 or 5000 on the big ones.
    people can be treated seated and have a night sleep as they re-charge thier cell phones register with red cross track family & friends and then get on smaller boats to bring them back up north to safe harbor points where they can be moved to a stadium which they could be setting up now with camper beds and food and cell phone laptop computer re-charger stations.
     
    RainbowSingularity, Jan 3, 2020
    #37
  21. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    mayor john white (East Gippsland)
    talking with ABC

    i can understand the need to sound calm and keep things simple
    what i did hear from him is that farmers are looking to the next season.

    my question is, why are farmers not planning ahead more than 1 season ?

    is this because of the drought ?
    so what he is saying, is that the drought has been soo bad that farmers are expecting to lose everything within 6 months
    that's quite a reality
    when you then add on top the fires which will wipe out the food stocks.
    i wonder how many have comprehensive stock insurance
    ...

    listening to the liberal senator talk
    he said everyone was doing a great job and communicating with their "masters"

    odd choice of words "masters" for a supposed liberal senator.
    maybe its slang, but for a professional public relations speech writer...
    hhmm...

    Victoria emergency services police & fire chief should have their own Black Hawk on loan with a ADF fire chief & Logistics officer
    (so when they move about, they are not playing gold-toilet-seat-disaster-tourist, they carry drinking water, fire-blankets, & food Ration bars & cell phone battery re-charge battery's)

    that southern wind shift is going to be a real bitch if it blows hard

    Victoria emergency services Report roughly 65% have evacuated.

    is looting an issue ?
    i would not think so.
     
    RainbowSingularity, Jan 3, 2020
    #38
  22. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    New South Wales Emergency Services Minister has been on Emergency holiday in Europe

    serious lack of helicopter support for medical victims
    clinic/hospital to hospital transfer for treatment...
    Burns treatment critical time response & technical access etc ...

    expected 80kmph winds... that will make landing on roof tops a bit tricky.

    thought ...
    if the 2 big fires connect and turn into a megga fire, it will likely create its own down wind weather system.
    that may change things a little.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    RainbowSingularity, Jan 3, 2020
    #39
  23. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    watching ABC news reporter "mary" talking live as the smoke gets thicker around her.
     
    RainbowSingularity, Jan 3, 2020
    #40
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