Discussion in 'World Events' started by Bells, Sep 15, 2017.
When did he do that? And I wouldn't be too surprised, I'm not a fan.
Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.
While actively refusing and banning said help. She even spread propaganda against aid organisations and observers in the country in the last few weeks, resulting in their having to run for their lives.
It's called stalling for time.
What she has said and is doing is what people complicit in ethnic cleansing and genocide do.
And this excuses ethnic cleansing and genocide?
And this excuses ethnic cleansing and genocide?
Hmm.. At this point I am just repeating myself..
Actually, she did not. She claimed that any action ended on the 5th of September and there have been no armed clashes since that date in her speech.
So she is either lying or too incompetent to know any differently or she is stalling for time by still refusing access and visas to the UN, NGO's and human rights observers and journalists.
Which would you prefer to apply?
Who were armed and bused in and under control of the military.
Really, your excuses are just becoming more and more ridiculous.
And yet, she publicly rejected UN reports at the start of this year about the violence in the State, not to mention she rejected a UN resolution for more investigations in May of this year and has banned the UN from accessing the region or investigating that State and other regions where the military were cracking down and committing human rights violation and "clearance" exercises against minority groups. And those bans remain in place.
She even denied any ethnic cleansing, despite all evidence pointing to the contrary.
But then again, nothing surprises me in what people are willing to come up with in excusing her duplicity and her complicity in what is happening to ethnic minorities in Myanmar.
Take for example:
Let me see if I have this correctly..
The UN, NGO's, the US Holocaust Memorial Museum (who sent observers to the region last year), human rights groups, journalists, victims, observers, are all a part of the "media hysterics"?
All have reported the same thing, that ethnic cleansing is taking place after observing it taking place. She has rejected their reports of ethnic cleansing and human rights violations despite their having observed it first hand and defended the military and the armed and army controlled militia for their actions there.
And this is the excuse you are relying on?
Really, this is pathetic and obscene at this point.
I have no problem with the truth.
I do, however, have a huge problem with someone who makes public statements about wanting help to "ascertain the truth" while at the same time, denying all access to those who are meant to investigate to ascertain said truth. She blatantly lied in the statement she made 'to the world'. Literally lied repeatedly.
And she is still lying and stalling for time before allowing investigators in by refusing to lift the ban on their accessing visas to the country and provinces where the violence occurred. Do you know why State actors do what she just did? Stalling for time, putting out a public plea for help and then refusing to allow them into the country to investigate and provide said help is a way of ensuring that by the time said investigators and NGO's are allowed in, there will be nothing to see because everyone will either have fled or been killed. She is doing the exact same thing other countries and Governments who have committed acts of genocide have done in history.
We have been there before in Rwanda, Cambodia, Srebenica, South Sudan, Yemen.. She is following the exact same pattern and behaviour. It is why organisations like Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the United Nations are all calling her out on her utter bullshit.
It actually is her ban.
I could say the same thing about you.
Ok let's take that one news article by the Daily Telegraph linked to by Bells. And do some assessment..
link provided by Bells: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/03/burmas-aung-san-suu-kyi-rejects-un-rohingya-probe/
Re: fact finding mission request:
Let us presume that she is being quoted accurately.
Date: May 2017
(01) "We do not agree with it," Ms Suu Kyi, Burma's de facto leader, told a press conference with EU diplomatic chief Federica Mogherini during a visit to Brussels, when asked about the probe.
(02) "We have disassociated ourselves from the resolution because we do not think that the resolution is in keeping with what is actually happening on the ground."
(03) Nobel laureate Suu Kyi said that Burma, also known as Myanmar, would be "happy to accept" recommendations that were "in keeping with the real needs of the region.
(04) "But those recommendations which will divide further the two communities in Rakhine we will not accept, because it will not help to resolve the problems that are arising all the time."
(05) "I am not sure quite what you mean by saying that we have not been concerned at all with regards to the allegations of atrocities that have taken place in the Rakhine," she said.
(06) "We have been investigating them and have been taking action."
(07) But Ms Suu Kyi told the BBC earlier this month (May 2017): "I don't think there is ethnic cleansing going on."So what do you think is wrong with what she has been saying?
Remember the circumstances of her government being newly elected, her defacto Presidency, the history of violence in Burma and also that internal information may be fractured at best. ( Do they even have electricity/telephone in those villages?)
Further to prove my point that her government has little to no control over the military and that her decisions could have disastrous consequences given the severity of the situation:
re: link provided by Bells : https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-re...g-her-head-in-the-sand-about-rakhine-horrors/
“Aung San Suu Kyi rightly pointed to challenges around conflicts in other parts of the country. But the fact remains that ethnic minorities are also suffering severe human rights violations by the military, notably in Kachin and northern Shan States. These patterns will continue as long as the security forces enjoy near total impunity.” (note the incredibly poor sentence structure)
This clearly states that according to Amnesty International the problem goes well beyond just the Rakhine state.
Why is it so hard to understand that the Military Junta is still in power and that Suu Kyi is walking a very fine line in attempting to maintain some semblance of order?
In fact those 300000+ refugees could just as easily have been slaughtered instead of being allowed to escape to Bangladesh. They may very well owe their very lives to Suu Kyi.
She is being made the international scape-goat by her countries militia ( military) IMO
Her leadership could very easily be over ruled as unconstitutional at any time by the military and then what do you think will happen?
See Item (04)
what two communities is she referring to......? Do you think?
The Rohingya and who else?
What divide is she referring to?
edit: by asking who else I mean is it only Buddhist vs Muslim or something else?
1) She did not agree with the UN probe, which was to investigate what was happening in the region, not just to the Rohingya, but other ethnic minorities as well. In fact, she banned them from entering the country. This from the woman who claims that they do not hide from scrutiny.
2) What has been happening on the ground is ethnic cleansing. She has denied this has been happening at all. In her latest statements, she expressed surprise that the Rohingya had fled the region and even said she did not know why they were fleeing. Look at the last point in the stages of genocide. Denial.
3) She is only happy to accept recommendations that agree with her standpoint and views. One the fact that the UN was investigating the Rohingya, when she has spent several years not even addressing them by name.. She has repeatedly categorically denied that her country's military are doing anything wrong in the region. Two, she is stalling. And denying what has been happening. Again, this is behaviour that the world has seen in previous instances of ethnic cleansing and genocide. State actors stall and deny any wrong doing and refuse access to UN and human rights observers because they know they will not agree with the findings.
4) Because fighting for the rights of the Rohingya will somehow or other deny ethnic Burmese Buddhists rights? Take off the rose coloured glasses and think about it.
5) She has categorically denied any wrong doing against the Rohingya for years. It's not that she is concerned, she does not believe the military and the military backed militia are doing anything wrong.
6) She hasn't been investigating. If she has and has managed to come back with the categorical denial of ethnic cleansing or any wrongdoing, then it is clear she is either lying or grossly incompetent or agrees with what they are doing. Which do you think applies?
7) Which kind of smacks down everything you have been trying to say in defending her. Ethnic cleansing is happening, satellite images support it, accounts of observers from the last few years support it, UN reports support it, journalists who managed to get into the region over the last few years support and it the hundreds of thousands of people who have had to flee for their lives, support it. That quote right there, literally contradicts her and ensures her complicity.
Well they did before the military and militia burnt everything down and began murdering people in their "clearance operations". And how does her government being newly elected excuse ethnic cleansing and genocide?
Did you know that when she was elected, the Rohingya cheered, because they wrongly assumed that because she prattled on so much about human rights, that she would recognise them as human beings and fellow citizens? She was their hope. And instead, since her release and her winning the election, she has denied them their identity and denied the gross human rights abuses they have been made to continue to endure, while she denies there has been any wrongdoing and then clamped down and denied visas to UN observers to the country as a whole.
Why has she then, in her capacity as a role that would amount to her being a Prime Minister and the foreign minister, denied UN observers and human rights observers visas to Myanmar to investigate these violations against the Rohingya and other ethnic minority groups who are also suffering?
And why is it so hard to understand that she is now so consumed with retaining power, that if what you are saying is correct, she is willing to be complicit in ethnic cleansing and genocide to solidify her political standing?
No, really, what does that say about her?
This is a woman who while incarcerated spoke out to everyone who would listen about the human rights abuses the military her father founded, were committing against the Burmese? But do you know who she never spoke out for? Ethnic minorities in Myanmar.
And if what you are saying is true and correct, then she is as evil as they are in what they are doing. Any person who is willing to defend ethnic cleansing and deny it is even taking place, any person who has openly and publicly denied them their very name, any person who went out of her way to try to bully other countries into not using the term "Rohingya" because that would symbolise they are Burmese, any person who goes out of her way to reiterate that they are not citizens and who repeatedly advised that they are "Bengali's", "foreigners", "the Muslims", "illegal immigrants", "terrorists" as propaganda to stoke more violence and fear towards them and other ethnic minority groups, should not be in power and does not deserve to hold any position of power. She has openly become complicit in genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Despite what you believe, she is in a very powerful position, because she has the overwhelming support of the populace. Why do you think the military literally gave up their hold on the country to share power with her and her party? She not only had the support of the population, she had absolute international support. Do you honestly think that if spoke out and the military somehow or other imprisoned her again, that they would do so without repercussions? Her platform and ability to help ethnic minorities was and is insanely big. She refuses to, because she does not believe they are doing anything wrong to the ethnic minorities who are facing persecution. She has openly said this throughout the years. So why is it so hard for you to stop defending her actions?
They weren't able to all be slaughtered because the were able to run for their lives. Others who weren't able to or were caught, were massacred. Pregnant women beaten to death, their newborns pulled from their bodies and stomped on, men and boys locked into houses and those houses set alight, children and babies decapitated and their bodies burnt. Others hacked to death or shot as they tried to flee. Helicopter gunships firing on them, their villages razed to the ground. Because all that wasn't enough, they then placed landmines were then placed to try to kill off those who managed to flee to the border.
A man named as Abdul Rahman, 41, said he had survived a five-hour attack on Chut Pyin village.
He told Fortifiy Rights, a charity working in the area, that a group of Rohingya men had been rounded up and detained in a bamboo hut, which was then set on fire.
"My brother was killed, [Burmese soldiers] burned him with the group,” he said.
“We found [my other family members] in the fields. They had marks on their bodies from bullets and some had cuts.
"My two nephews, their heads were off. One was six years old and the other was nine years old. My sister-in-law was shot with a gun.”
Another man from the same village, named as Sultan Ahmed, 27, told the charity: “Some people were beheaded, and many were cut. We were in the house hiding when [armed residents from a neighbouring village] were beheading people.
"When we saw that, we just ran out the back of the house.”
Survivors from other villages in the region also described seeing people being beheaded or having their throats cut.
Tell me something QQ, in what reality do you exist in that you see that as "being allowed to escape"?
No, she made herself a scapegoat for years, when she continuously supported the human rights abuses against the Rohingya. What we are seeing now is not new, QQ.
So you think being complicit in ethnic cleansing and genocide is a better option?
"If the political price of your ascension to the highest office in Myanmar is your silence, the price is surely too steep,”
Ethnic Burmese Buddhist, who are being armed by the military to help with the genocide and ethnic cleansing.
so are you recommending she step down from her defacto presidency and be replaced by whom?
how many years and in what capacity?
You are saying that a person who was under house arrest (15 years?) who refused to leave the country to freedom so that she could remain and aid her people was somehow denying human rights abuses whilst under arrest? uhm... prior to being awarded the Nobel PP no less...
What on earth are you ranting about...?
Would you like to help build a time line of important events in Burma since the British removed them selves.?
gosh I saw people being disemboweled and I wasn't even there.. do you believe me?
If you don't then why not?
You seem to believe everything else....
"...and I witnessed the soldier slice her throat from ear to ear, then penetrate her full belly to extract the baby child only to swing it's corpse around his head laughing all the time. Yelling "Rohingya, dinga, Rohingya dinga"... over and over.."
Trying to shock people with exaggerated graphic detail is an old media trick... and works surprisingly well...
I am recommending she be arrested and face trial along with her other cohorts in her government for ethnic cleansing and genocide.
She has never advocated for their rights. Ever.
What part of that was so hard for you to understand?
Which people? She only advocated for herself and ethnic Burmese. You missed all that? She never advocated for the ethnic minorities of her country.
How else are you going to continue to condone and excuse her and her party's and government's complicity to ethnic cleansing and genocide?
The persecution of the Rohingya and other ethnic minorities dates back centuries. Did you miss the links where this was detailed?
Learn to read:
Survivors from other villages in the region also described seeing people being beheaded or having their throats cut.
They are survivors who are detailing what they saw and experienced. In your condoning and defending her complicity, are you now going to claim they are lying? Because you are now coming dangerously close to labeling them as liars, mocking the horror they endured and denying what they experienced.
How low are you willing to go, QQ?
Well, I guess that answers that question.. Where did you pull that quote from?
This is what these people experienced and you are literally saying 'oh, it's all so exaggerated and graphic' and labeling it a "media trick". Human rights organisations have even more graphic details on their websites.. It's interesting that I provide you with fairly tame survivor's stories and you bring out that one to mock all of it.
To wit, you are mocking the victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide in your bid to cheer on the woman who is complicit in said ethnic cleansing and genocide.
You know, I've seen people bend over backwards to excuse some really pathetic crap. You are essentially denying an ongoing genocide and ethnic cleansing that has been confirmed by the UN, NGO's, human rights organisations, journalists, aid groups, you are basically saying the survivors are liars and denying what they experienced and you are mocking them and calling what they experienced "exaggerated". What has been reported in the media is actually quite tame. They cannot go in and film, photograph and document what has been going on, because journalists, like NGO's, human rights groups, the UN, medical staff and other observers, are not allowed to enter the country to document what has been happening. Let me guess, you rolled your eyes at the images and photos of hacked up bodies in the Rwandan genocide too? How about Srebenica? East Timor? Did you mock them too and refer to the accounts of survivors as "exaggerated" and blamed the media for inflating it?
Do you understand why it is important to allow journalists into these regions? Do you understand the utter importance of their role in these types of conflicts?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
I will be blunt, there is no walking back denying and mocking victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is the sort of shit that will stain you for life.
Can you prove that she is guilty of ordering genocide? Or can you only prove she has been silent?
Obviously you have not heard of the right to remain silent...
In a very hostile world when a person fears they are not going to be listened to objectively, silence is most often the only option.
Says someone who thinks she has been expressing hate speech whilst under house arrest prior to getting a Nobel for peace... yeah sure... go on with your sanctimonious, overly emotional and dramatized distortions.
You have, of course, avoided dealing with your obvious conflation.
You do realize she was a political prisoner for over 15 years don't you...
Was she imprisoned for human rights violations or for advocating human rights?
What was she convicted of?
The sort for contempt you have for evidence based judgement is staggering.
There is I believe a strong case for ethnic cleansing. No case as yet for genocide. A case against potentially rogue militia and gov. troops over reacting to attacks on police stations August 25th 2017 by guess who?
Are you not concerned about the coincidence of this and the rise of ISIL in the Philippines, the growing radicalization in Indonesia and the general state of Islamophobia world wide with bombings on subways, etc...?
Why you have so much hatred for the Nobel prize winner is beyond comprehension...
Peace and harmony is all she has begged for her country...
More Sanctimonious bs!
It is unsafe for journalists to venture into the area.
Today it was reported that an aid shipment was attacked by 200+ Buddhist militia to prevent aid being delivered to Northern Rakhine state.
Several hundred people tried to stop a boat being loaded with about 50 tonnes of aid at a dock in the Rakhine state capital of Sittwe late on Wednesday, a government information office said.
The protest was a testament to rising communal animosity that threatens to complicate the delivery of vital supplies.
The protesters, some carrying sticks and metal bars, threw petrol bombs and about 200 police were forced to disperse them by shooting into the air, a witness said, adding that he saw some injured people.
Eight people were detained, the government information office said in a release.
A spokeswoman for the ICRC and police in Sittwe were not immediately available for comment.
As it stands there appears to be no way the Government can guarantee safety for any UN or media representatives and to send them in would only inflame the situation ( as it stands)
The whole shebang could end up making the killing fields of Cambodia seem trivial.
The government that she leads and its military is committing ethnic cleansing and genocide, QQ. She has been very open in her defense of that position, repeatedly. At no time has she indicated otherwise. Her official Facebook page has been spreading propaganda to aid in the ethnic cleansing, she has attempted to bully other countries when they refer to them as the Rohingyas.. Not her office, but her personally. She has defended the military's actions against ethnic minority groups they have been doing their "clearance operations" against. She has denied any wrongdoing on their part.
The person who is guilty of ordering and directing the military to commit the acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing is the one on the left. The one who is complicit and has declared that his actions and that of the military is sound and within the rule of law in Burma, is the one on the right.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
His name is Min Aung Hlaing. And obviously we know who she is. Are you going to make excuses for him too?
Do you understand what is meant by 'complicit' in the context of this discussion, QQ? Because you don't seem to be grasping what it actually means. Or perhaps you are just doing what you are doing to change the subject yet again.
I'm sorry, are you claiming Miranda rights for a State actor who is complicit in an ongoing genocide and ethnic cleansing?
What is interesting is that you left out the next part of the Miranda rights..
So this is your next excuse for her silence and then condoning and complicity in ethnic cleansing and genocide..? I mean, you've run the full gamut at this point. What's left? Dementia? Stupidity? Incompetence? 'If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'?
Can you point out where I said that? I said she was expressing hate speech and propaganda in support of the ethnic cleansing and against aid groups that were trying to help the ethnic minority through her official Facebook.. I also said that she has never once spoken out for the ethnic minority groups like the Rohingya even while she was incarcerated. Why are you trying to twist what I say to be something completely different?
Oh look changing the subject yet again and going off on another tangent. What parts of my posts did you not understand that would lead you to come out with this rubbish, exactly?
And the contempt you have shown towards the victims of genocide and ethnic cleansing is not exactly staggering. It has been gag inducing. When people openly support genocide and ethnic cleansing and condone acts that lead to said genocide and ethnic cleansing and participate by spreading propaganda against the victims of genocide and ethnic cleansing, they are generally seen to be complicit. That is what happens when people go out of their way to behave as she has done in regards to this matter, QQ. Do you understand that?
“We applauded Aung San Suu Kyi when she received her Nobel Prize because she symbolized courage in the face of tyranny,” noted Ken Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “Now that she’s in power, she symbolizes cowardly complicity in the deadly tyranny being visited on the Rohingya.”
That pretty much sums up how the human rights community sees her.
Do you understand why? Or do you need some more time to carry water for her?
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
How much do you know about genocide?
From Yale University, in a long and detailed study a few years ago:
The conditions in both northern Rakhine State and the IDP camps are dire: Rohingya lack freedom of movement, access to food, clean drinking water, sanitation, medical care, work opportunities, and education. They live in conditions that appear to have been calculated to bring about their destruction. The acts committed against the Rohingya, individually and collectively, meet the criteria for finding acts enumerated in the Genocide Convention and have been perpetrated against a protected group.
This paper, therefore, finds strong evidence that the abuses against the Rohingya satisfy the three elements of genocide: that Rohingya are a group as contemplated by the Genocide Convention; that genocidal acts have been committed against Rohingya; and that such acts have been committed with the intent to destroy the Rohingya, in whole or in part. If a full and impartial investigation by an independent international authority substantiates and augments the evidence available to the Lowenstein Clinic for its analysis of the situation of the Rohingya, such a commission would likely conclude that genocide has been or is being committed against the Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar’s Rakhine State.
In light of this conclusion, the United Nations should adopt a resolution to establish a commission of inquiry on the human rights situation in Rakhine State, Myanmar.
The camps the study talks about, by the way, are modern day concentration/forced labour camps. They are locked up, starved and denied medical care, tortured, women and girls raped and beaten and forced to work. She has since denied the UN entry or the right to investigate those findings and those from human rights groups.
But we'll just take your word for it that it's not a case yet for genocide and that this is being committed by "rogue militia and government troops".
What does that have to do with the ethnic minorities in Burma who are the victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide?
I'm sorry, am I meant to fawn and carry water for someone who has been actively complicit and defended "clearance operations" that is actually ethnic cleansing and genocide? People who engage in that sort of behaviour are beneath contempt.
She begged for peace and harmony for her country? Aww.. Too bad she did not extend that to ethnic minority groups who are currently fleeing for their lives in the face of military attacks she lied about when she publicly claimed it all ended weeks ago.
And why is it unsafe? Oh yeah, they are committing acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Perhaps if they stopped, it would be a much safer place for journalists to venture into the area. But as history has shown, people who are complicit in acts of genocide and those who partake in it, tend to like to do it all on the down low, hush hush, so they can try to deny it happened later on. Too bad those pesky satellite images and survivors are able to explain what has happened and too bad that those bans were put in place after they realised the media and aid organisations and human rights observers actually spoke out about it.
Aung San Suu Kyi’s office has accused international aid workers of helping “terrorists”, a claim that has prompted fears for their safety and been condemned as dangerously irresponsible.
The state counsellor office said it had learned that international aid staff had “participated while extremist terrorists besieged” a village in Rakhine state, adding it would investigate the claims.
The office, headed by Suu Kyi who is the country’s de facto leader, also posted a photo of United Nations world food programme biscuits which it said were found on 30 July “at the camp where terrorists sheltered”.
How utterly surprising that an aid truck was attacked after her office spread propaganda about aid groups...
That's what happens when you arm a mob, incite them to participate in ethnic cleansing and then have people like Aung San Suu Kyi's office release propaganda against aid groups and the Rohingya.
That's usually the case when they have to report on wars.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any clue what you're on about, or are you just ranting?
A question you really need to ask Bells
So far he has claimed genocide is taking place in Rakhine State in numerous posts in this thread with out any evidence to support it. There is no evidence of genocide.
So far he has conflated the issue of guilt due to silence. I suppose he thinks Suu supports Trumps Presidency due to her silence also.
He fails to take what has been said by Suu on face value and fails to consider that what she has said may actually be what she genuinely believes and thinks.
At the moment the inflammatory rhetoric he is a shining example of is generating a lot of angst in surrounding predominantly Muslim nations. "A rallying point for Muslim leaders around the world" who are looking for any excuse to also agree that genocide is taking place when in fact there is no evidence of genocide. Quite the contrary, over 400000 persons have managed to escape to Bangladesh. 200 million Muslims in Indonesia alone...could indeed lead to a genocide of Myanmar Buddhists.
He fails to acknowledge that Suu had been under house arrest for advocating human rights for over 15 years and claims that during that time of house arrest she was somehow guilty of racially motivated crimes against humanity.
That her house arrest was somehow a fraud!
So yes it may be a good idea to ask what the hell he is ranting about....
I suggested a solution to the crisis that involves a major change in the thinking and response by the UN. An idealism... a fantasy that may be worth pursuing.
He suggests an invasion of a sovereign state to arrest and detain and to force regime change, to create yet another debacle similar (and probably a hell of lot worse) to Libya and Iraq based on third hand info posted by crappy British and USA newspapers.
In the mean time, while he is ranting about who is at fault with out any way of knowing the truth, over 400000 persons wallow in mud desperate for a solution. All Bells can do is suggest a perpetual repeat of the same problem with the same solution.
Over indulging in sympathy grabbing, sanctimonious self righteousness that fails to deal with the reality of the situation miserably.
There.. you happy now...
I am now guilty of the ranting you accuse me of....
Most of the questions Bells has asked have been answered by Suu.
He only needs to listen to her answers...
Separate names with a comma.