Aung San Suu Kyi.. The Fall of a Human Rights Icon..

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Bells, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. Bells Staff Member

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    Considering you have absolutely no idea what self determination means..

    Moving on..

    Meanwhile, we urge upon ASEAN and the international community to put pressure on the Myanmar government, to end persecution against helpless and defenceless Rohingya and to ensure their rights and freedom with full citizenship and ethnic rights. It should be stressed that human rights are universal and violation of human rights cannot be pleaded as internal affairs of a country.​

    And here is another one:

    To amend 1982 Citizenship Law to conform it to international human rights law and citizenship standards ensuring full citizenship and all accompanying rights to Rohingya​

    And another one:

    The Rohingya people have rejected the so-called ‘green card’ as the ID is not related to their historicity, ethnic identity and national status. On top of that, being indigenous to Arakan, they are natural born citizens of Burma/Myanmar.

    [...]

    In view of the above, we urge upon the European Union for the followings:

    To put pressure on Thein Sein government to end all persecution and ghettoization against Rohingya, and to restore their citizenship and ethnic rights in their own homeland.​


    And what do you know, here is yet another one:

    Arakan Rohingya National Organisation welcomes the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly adopted on Monday, 29th December 20014, urging Myanmar to grant full citizenship to its Rohingya Muslim minority and grant them equal access to services.

    The measure was adopted by consensus in the 193–nation assembly, a month after it was approved by the assembly’s rights committee.
    The resolution expresses "serious concern" over the plight of the Rohingya in Arakan/Rakhine state, where 140,000 people live in squalid camps after deadly violence erupted between Buddhists and Muslims in 2012.

    The resolution urges the Myanmar government to protect the rights of all inhabitants of Arakan/Rakhine State and allow "equal access to full citizenship for the Rohingya minority", to "allow self-identification" and ensure equal access to service.

    Welcoming the UNGA resolution, ARNO expects that good sense prevails in the minds of the Myanmar authorities to end the persecution and atrocity crimes against Rohingya minority forthwith, to grand them full citizenship and to allow their “Rohingya ethnic identity” and to ensure “right of equal footing” in all their national activities.​

    This has been the consistent message for years.
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Obviously this is going to be a sticky point. So I shall attempt to explain and example better.
    According to the UN wiki
    The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[1][2] It states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[3]

    So yes you are correct in that it does not mean on it's own that they seek a separate state. as an individual however as a group of "peoples" it changes considerably.

    "The right of ‘self-determination’ of the Rohingya people within the Burmese federation."

    In the context of a proven history of insurgency and a relatively consistent demand for independence since 1945 one could very easily conclude that they do in fact mean "self determination " as in self-governing with in the Burmese federation.

    Certainly I would expect that the Myanmar Government would interpret it that way, hence claiming the Rohingya insurgencies as terrorism.
    Also what further provides momentum to the idea is that there is no mention of their demand for Myanmar citizenship with in their primary charter. (ARNO)
    Which I find to be extraordinary given that they have been declared stateless for some time now.

    so in summary:
    • Desire for self-determination.
    • A long history of insurgency for independence of the Arakan. (traditional lands)
    • No actual demand for citizenship of Myanmar in their published manifesto
    • No actual mention of the willingness or agreement to abide by the rule of Myanmar law.

    One could very easily conclude that they seek self government thus independence from the Myanmar Government and wish to create an independent state with in a yet to be formed Burmese Federation.

    Again I would fully expect that the Myanmar Government would interpret it that way.

    As I said to Bells many times it is not what I believe that matters, it is what the Myanmar Government , their ethnic Buddhist population and the military believe that does.

    ARSA

    According to the lead interrogator of ARSA suspects jailed in Sittwe, Police Captain Yan Naing Latt, the group's goal is to create a "democratic Muslim state for the Rohingya" in Myanmar. Although there is no firm evidence linking the ARSA to foreign Islamist groups, the Burmese government suspects that the group is involved with and subsidized by foreign Islamists.[11] The Burmese government has also accused the ARSA of murdering 34 to 44 civilians and kidnapping 22 others in reprisal attacks against those the ARSA have perceived as government collaborators.[12][13] These claims have been denied by the ARSA, who have stated that they "have no links to terrorist groups or foreign Islamists" and that their "only target is the oppressive Burmese regime".[5]

    On 26 August 2017, the Central Committee for Counter Terrorism of Myanmar declared the ARSA a terrorist group in accordance with the country's counter terrorism law.[14] However on 28 August the group released a statement, calling government allegations against it as "baseless" and claiming that its main purpose is to defend Rohingyas' rights

    So all in all I believe that the main reason for the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Rohingya people is because, unlike other Muslim minority groups in Myanmar they are believed to be fighting for succession and the ethnic Buddhist, Military and Government are strongly opposed to any attempt to break up the nation of Myanmar.

    This is not fact but serious speculation as to the main reasons for the genocide taking place in a way that the government appears to condone, by inaction.

    links:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myanmar#Government_and_politics
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_insurgency_in_Western_Myanmar
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arakan_Rohingya_National_Organisation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arakan_Rohingya_Salvation_Army
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    So you admit to lying when you wrote and linked
    as there is indeed no mention at all of the desire for citizenship.
    try again:
    from your link

    ABOUT ARNO


    Arakan Rohingya National Organisation (ARNO) is one of the representative organisations of the Rohingya people of Arakan, Burma, based in London, the United Kingdom. It is a broad based Organisation of the Rohingya People that emerged in 1998. It is one of the Founding member of Arakan Rohingya Union which was formed with the initiative of Euro-Burma Office and Organisation of Islamic Co-operation (OIC)





    THE AIMS AND OBJECTIVE, POLICES AND PROGRAMMES (ABRIDGED) OF THE ARNO ARE:



    The right of ‘self-determination’ of the Rohingya people within the Burmese federation; preservation of their (Rohingya’s) history and cultural heritage without prejudice to the growth and preservation of other religious and indigenous culture in Arakan; condemnation of religious persecution by the military; repatriation of Rohingya refugees from their places of refuge; human resource development particularly in socio-cultural, economic, educational and technical fields; establishment of a welfare society based on equality, liberty, democracy, human rights and freedom for all peoples; “peaceful co-existence” with Rakhine community (Buddhist of Arakan) and among all other peoples in Arakan as well as in the whole of the country; joint struggle with the Burmese opposition and democratic forces; support to landmine ban treaty; support of the rights of Rohingya women and girls to education, health and economic empowerment; educating the youths of the dangers of drugs (including AIDS infection); protection of environment, including forests, rivers, wetland, Coastline Ocean and to save their land from unsustainable logging, killing of endangered species, all forms of pollution, and over fishing and to preserve a green haven for their children and the world; support for future sustainable, appropriate, clean, and beneficial development to the common people.”



    ARNO is working together with all parties and important civil society organisations of the Rohingya people at home and aboard and also with Burmese Organisations. It is working with British Foreign and Common Wealth Office and Parliamentary Committee on Burma and European Parliament. It maintains a close relation with Amnesty International, Asia Watch, Burma Campaign U.K and many other human rights and humanitarian organisations in Europe, USA and Asia. It is closely working together with Burma Democracy movement, ethnic nationalities forums and support groups. In addition ARNO is actively working together with Euro-Burma Office in Brussels (Belgium) and National Reconciliation Programme (NRP) of the Union of Burma. ARNO carries out various socio-cultural, economic and education uplift programmes and human resource development among the Rohingya people.
     
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  7. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    fair enough .. maybe they should amend their manifesto on the front page then...and include it in " Who they are".
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I take offense to that asinine comment...
     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    17,628
    Bells
    You still don't understand that it is the Government , the military and the ethnic majorities belief that is important.

    I am only showing why they may believe as they do.

    So don't shoot me shoot them..
    my position was fairly well explained in post #172:

    Just for the record, after performing some significant research into the issue of Arakan (Rakhine) state independence movement I have formed the opinion that you are terribly mistaken about Aung San Suu Kyi 's motivation in remaining silent and appearing to condone the ongoing abuses of the self titled Rohingya people.

    I have come to the conclusion that the only reason the Rohingya are still alive today any where in Myanmar is because of the strength of her support, both internationally and internally, restraining the military and the Buddhist majority from completing the genocide and ethnic cleansing that has been ongoing since the Rohingya started their fight for independence of the Arakan ( Rakhine ) state.

    You seek to undermine her international support and I find that reprehensible knowing what I have come to know.

    If Aung San Suu Kyi is removed from office or is seen to be overly supporting of Rakhine (Arakan) independence her ability to minimize the ethnic cleansing would be seriously diminished. Millions of Rohingya would most likely die as a consequence.

    I am seriously considering doing the work necessary to put together a thread that fully explains this and shall post a link here if and when I get to it..

    Summary:
    Undermining international support and the majority ethnic popularity of Aung San Suu Kyi and the influence that this allows will almost definitely lead to unbridled genocide in Myanmar and solve nothing except ridding the Maynmar of the Rohingya for ever.
     
  10. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,380
    What the hell are you even on about?

    They are from the same website, QQ.

    Just because you do not understand what "self determination" means, is not my problem. You are the only person who has participated in this thread who has utterly failed to understand what it means. Everyone else understands it. You are the only one who does not.

    You still don't understand?

    This:

    The right of ‘self-determination’ of the Rohingya people within the Burmese federation; preservation of their (Rohingya’s) history and cultural heritage without prejudice to the growth and preservation of other religious and indigenous culture in Arakan; condemnation of religious persecution by the military; repatriation of Rohingya refugees from their places of refuge; human resource development particularly in socio-cultural, economic, educational and technical fields; establishment of a welfare society based on equality, liberty, democracy, human rights and freedom for all peoples; “peaceful co-existence” with Rakhine community (Buddhist of Arakan) and among all other peoples in Arakan as well as in the whole of the country; joint struggle with the Burmese opposition and democratic forces; support to landmine ban treaty; support of the rights of Rohingya women and girls to education, health and economic empowerment; educating the youths of the dangers of drugs (including AIDS infection); protection of environment, including forests, rivers, wetland, Coastline Ocean and to save their land from unsustainable logging, killing of endangered species, all forms of pollution, and over fishing and to preserve a green haven for their children and the world; support for future sustainable, appropriate, clean, and beneficial development to the common people.”


    Is not exactly obtainable without citizenship in Myanmar!

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

    Or do you require pictures? Because for over half a dozen pages, you have failed to understand this very simple point..

    Wait..

    So you are posting propaganda from the people who are committing the ethnic cleansing and the genocide? That's your evidence?

    My God! It's like your head is an empty vessel where there's just an echo..

    Why?

    Perhaps they believe that people who read their front page have a basic fundamental understanding of the words and aren't morons.

    You still don't know what it means.

    Wait, so now you're changing it up again?

    You really are a troll.

    They aren't the ones who are here posting propaganda for their genocide. You are.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    17,628
    well tell us all why you think the Myanmar Government is apparently condoning genocide of the Rohingya with out quoting propaganda.
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

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    22,380
    That has already been addressed repeatedly in this thread.

    Not going to repeat the same thing, again, because you have an itch to continue to be a disingenuous troll.
     
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,628
    so what do you want to talk about Bells.. anything...
    I posted my position and what I believe may be why they are being persecuted...
    I am satisfied...
    I responded to James R 's request and I hope he is satisfied.

    Can I help you with anything else?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,628
    well those that are carrying out a horrendous ethnic cleansing and genocide are certainly morons...
     
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  16. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,380
    I would like to actually get back to discussing this thread's topic without you derailing it with your inane trolling and stupidity.

    If you cannot participate in this thread in good faith, then do not post in it at all.

    And yet you use their propaganda to support your vapid claims. Go figure.

    That you would make a good recruit and that they should perhaps pay for your air fare to go and work for Suu Kyi's office as her water boy so that you stop wasting everyone else's time.
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    34,866
    I keep wanting to crack a joke about American Christians, supremacism, Texas, and separatism, but I'm uncertain which it is. After all, we're not about to drive white Texas Christians over the Mexican border in order to deal with constant secession chatter and occasional threats. And at a time when they wish to lay siege to female children and force them to have rape babies—yes, that's real legislation that passed and received the governor's signature—it just doesn't seem wise to joke about the Lone Star Republic finally being worth something more than the misery it causes everyone else; they receive such jokes worse than they do reality.

    I don't see how John Q. Texan's stupid advocacy for supremacism and secession should condemn little Johnny Dallas, who died at forty days old when disaster struck because his mother was trying to get out of the way of our societal retribution. I don't understand why we have to chase the family from Galveston to sea just because some preacher from Corpus Christi decided to be an asshole, and a bunch of two-bit punks are looking for excuses to cause trouble in the streets.

    We didn't jadehelm Texas when they were getting ready to institutionalize Christian advocacy for rape and rapists; we're not going to rakhine them just because they passed the damn bill, and we're not going to cleanse Texas of white people even if that's how white Christians from Texas would do it.

    Nor does this seem a point of American supremacy; that is, you certainly don't need to be an American to figure out chasing white folks out of Texas in response to some white, Christian supremacist blithering about secession again while the white Christians line up to victimize their own daughters in order to hurt everyone else's, is wrong.

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    Jeff Danziger, 15 November 2012
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    22,380
    One of the interesting things about Aung San Suu Kyi is that she is very careful in how she crafts her message and how well she and her government deals with criticisms.

    For example:

    The Rohingya issue is not the only one on which Suu Kyi — the democratic champion — has faltered.

    Dozens of criminal defamation cases have been filed under the Telecommunications Act under her government for little more than criticising Suu Kyi, her government or the military on Facebook.

    Amendments passed last month now prevent third parties from pressing charges, but the statute remains on the books even though her National League for Democracy has the numbers to scrap it. Journalists have been jailed for simply reporting in areas held by ethnic insurgents.

    This from the woman who declared she was not afraid of international scrutiny, while at the same time, banning UN observers and human rights observers and reporters from the country and from those areas. And those orders come from her office.

    It is not just the silence, her actions themselves reek. The Rohingya are far from the only persecuted minority in Myanmar. Her words and actions towards other persecuted minorities really says a lot about how she views them as human beings.

    There is a very now well known event, of what she said when she visited one region that has faced obscene levels of persecution from the military..

    Suu Kyi has also kept silent over military violence against ethnic groups in Kachin and Shan states, despite having prioritised a peace deal with long-warring ethnic groups there.

    Earlier this year, she visited a camp for ethnic Kachin driven out of their villages by fierce fighting. There too the army has been accused of mass rapes and wholesale village destruction.

    Suu Kyi told women in the camps they should stop being victims and find themselves jobs, says Mathieson
    .​

    Which literally puts her denials of mass rapes into perspective.

    One family who faced persecution, imprisonment and violence, along with the wives of other political prisoners, saw just how short sighted and horrible she actually is first hand:

    Khin Zaw Win, a political prisoner for 11 years who now heads the Yangon-based Tampadipa Institute think tank, says the world has misread Suu Kyi and that the Rohingya issue has “lifted the scales from the eyes of many admirers in the international community”.

    His family has its own bitter memories of being summoned, along with the wives and children of other political prisoners, to Suu Kyi’s party office in 2000.

    The International Red Cross had just entered Myanmar and was giving aid to the families, including his wife and young daughter, who were struggling to survive during his long imprisonment.

    “She told them: ‘Look at you. You’re all wearing gold jewellery. Why do you need assistance from the Red Cross?’ Many of these people were in very dire straits. People were starving,” he says.

    “She bullies people. Everybody is deathly afraid of her.
    ”​

    Her current behaviour towards what is happening to the Rohingya fits that certain kind of pattern. Cold, calculating, cruel and willing deny and downplay the violence ethnic minorities fact in Myanmar.

    In other words, what we are now seeing is not new. This is who she is. The bullying type of behaviour has been reported by other countries and diplomats after she attempted to bully them into not referring to the Rohingya as "Rohingya". If anything is to come out of this, is that people now see who she really is.

    David Mathieson, who is a former Human Rights Watch (Myanmar) researcher put it best in how he described her:

    “I doubt she ever deeply believed in the values she used to yell over the fence (while under house arrest) and tell well-meaning foreigners. You only need to look at the broader picture and how she is replicating her behaviour (on the Rohingya issue) on a grand scale.”

    It is hard to disagree.
     
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    From a propaganda point of view it certainly is interesting....
    19-09-2017
    src: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/09/suu-kyi-burying-head-sand-rohingya-crisis-170919092338988.html

    Rohingya Refugee
    "Suu Kyi is a traitor. We can't rely on her words," said Sultan Ahmed, who arrived in Cox's Bazar in Bangladesh along with hundreds of thousands of refugees two weeks ago.
    The 80-year-old told Al Jazeera that he did not believe the de facto leader would act on her words because "everything is run and decided by the army".
    Aung San Suu Kyi "is only a name there. Nobody cares about her," he said.

    ====
    Aung San Suu Kyi
    Aung San Suu Kyi had said more than half of Rohingya villages were not affected by the violence, and invited diplomats and observers to visit those villages so they could learn why Buddhists and Muslims "are not at each other's throats in these particular areas".

    ====
    Amnesty International
    "While it was positive to hear Aung San Suu Kyi condemn human rights violations in Rakhine state, she is still silent about the role of the security forces," Amnesty said in a statement.
    "Aung San Suu Kyi today demonstrated that she and her government are still burying their heads in the sand over the horrors unfolding in Rakhine State," the rights group said.
    "At times, her speech amounted to little more than a mix of untruths and victim blaming."

    ====
    Human Rights Watch
    Phil Robertson of Human Rights Watch, referring to Aung San Suu Kyi's assertion that military operations had ended, asked: "If that is true, then who is burning all the villages we've seen in the past two weeks?"
    He said satellite images showed about half of all Rohingya villages had been torched and it was time that Aung San Suu Kyi, the government and the military faced the fact that the security forces "don't follow a code of conduct and shoot and kill who they want".

    ====
    Rohingya Researcher
    Ronan Lee, a Rohingya researcher at Deakin University, said Aung San Suu Kyi's speech was "deeply concerning from a humanitarian point of view".
    It was likely to provide the military with "genuine solace and certainty that she will not call on them to stop what they are doing," he told Al Jazeera from Melbourne.

    ====
    China
    The ambassador of China, Hong Liang, welcomed Aung San Suu Kyi's speech saying it would improve understanding.

    ====
    Russia
    Nikolay Listopadov, Russia's ambassador to Myanmar, said there was no evidence of ethnic cleaning.
    ====
    Bangladesh
    Mohammad Sufiur Rahman, Bangladesh's ambassador to Myanmar, said: "I simply say one thing, that whatever she said is encouraging and we have to implement that in the right spirit."

    ====
    USA
    US Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Patrick Murphy also attended the address but did not comment.​

    src: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/09/suu-kyi-burying-head-sand-rohingya-crisis-170919092338988.html
    dated: 19/09/2017

    It is interesting that the USA Patrick Murphy who attended is reported to have been silent on the issue.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    22,380
    No they aren't.

    The United States will dispense about $32 million in humanitarian assistance to the Rohingya ethnic minority facing persecution in Myanmar’s Rakhine state, the State Department said Wednesday.

    “Through this support, the United States will help provide emergency shelter, food security, nutritional assistance, health assistance, psychosocial support, water, sanitation and hygiene, livelihoods, social inclusion, non-food items, disaster and crisis risk reduction, restoring family links, and protection to over 400,000 displaced persons in Burma and in Bangladesh,” according to the press release.

    [...]

    The disbursement of aid represents the Trump administration’s first concrete response to the crisis. U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley called for Myanmar to let in a U.N. fact-finding mission in July, to no avail.

    Secretary of State Rex Tillerson spoke with Myanmar’s de facto leader Aung San Suu Kyi on Tuesday, according to a statement. He urged her to facilitate the delivery of humanitarian aid.

    It speaks volumes that even Trump's administration is handling it better than she is.
     
  21. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    You posted about what aid they may be delivering as an answer to what they had to say....
    so... uhm.. what do they officially have to say about Aung San Suu Kyi actions or inactions?
     
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I edited the post so that there is less confusion
     
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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