Attitudes to rape

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by James R, Oct 27, 2006.

?

I believe the following are mitigating circumstances in rape (see first post):

  1. Woman was wearing 'sexy' or revealing clothing.

    7 vote(s)
    10.6%
  2. Woman had many past sexual partners.

    7 vote(s)
    10.6%
  3. Woman was drunk at the time (i.e. got herself drunk).

    10 vote(s)
    15.2%
  4. Woman at no time clearly said "No" to sex.

    22 vote(s)
    33.3%
  5. Woman previously flirted with the rapist.

    7 vote(s)
    10.6%
  6. Woman was in a relationship with the rapist at the time.

    10 vote(s)
    15.2%
  7. Woman was married to the rapist.

    13 vote(s)
    19.7%
  8. Woman had consented to sex with the rapist on another occasion.

    10 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Woman had a reputation for being sexually promiscuous.

    6 vote(s)
    9.1%
  10. None of the above.

    37 vote(s)
    56.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    well then your not going to lighten up because rape wont stop happening until men stop having sexual desire.

    people need to understand human nature a little here, we are not very nice you know,

    and i knew you was lesbian.

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    peace.
     
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  3. Exploradora Registered Senior Member

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    I would find that comment offensive, however I think it says more about you than me.
     
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  5. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    wich comment the one where i said rape wont stop until men dont have sexual desire anymore, or the one saying your a lesbian?


    or are we gonna go for a combo and pick both?

    lighten up please its all in good humour. if you cant laugh at the worlds troubles and horrible ethical situations then what can you laugh at?

    family guy, southpark, american dad? oh wait scratch that

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    peace.
     
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  7. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

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    I remember a time when this thread would not be originated by James R, I guess I've rubbed off on him :C
     
  8. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    i think james changed his sex awhile back. he seems more feminine nowdays and touchy.

    peace
     
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Moderator note: EmptyForceOfChi has been banned for 3 days for repeated personal attacks and trolling.
     
  10. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    according to a translation of a dictionary.

    So I believe that their can't be a rape when the "victim" is a willing participant "at the time" otherwise any women who has second doubts can call a in a rape.
     
  11. Exploradora Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    264
    There are multiple definitions of rape. Some forms of rape can have the illusion of consent or participation (such as having sex with someone who cannot consent or forcing sex through coercive means). Different areas have different laws regarding what can, and what cannot, be considered rape. Sometimes it cannot be rape if you are married to the rapist.

    We have to consider that the report rate of rape is very low, the conviction rate very low, and the false report rate is also very, very low. There are very few people who run around crying rape- I am not about to say they do not exist, but they are rare.

    Women, historically, have held all of the burden of rape. Do not walk alone at night, do not wear provocative clothes, etc. Many, many women live in terror of being hurt- and it's considered normal! I propose that men should also hold that burden. If you are afraid of someone pressing false charges then avoid situations where those charges could be made. Don't have sex on the first date, don't hook up, always get affirmative consent, never pressure someone for sex, and always, ALWAYS make sure the person is capable of giving full consent (not drunk, not on impairing drugs, not mentally impaired, and old enough legally).
     
  12. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    And get them to sign a legal consent document, have it notarized by a judge, prior to having sex. And the act of sex should be video taped, with sound taping, so as to prove that the act was, in fact, consentual.

    Geez, is sex actually worth all of that????

    Of course, my goats and sheep never yell 'rape'. Perhaps that's a good lesson for all men, huh?

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    Baron Max
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Mod Hat - Er ....

    Is there a topic left?
     
  14. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

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    A depressing thought

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  15. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    Of course there is Tiassa, people are still discussing attitudes to rape.

    -------

    Men are no more responsible for avoiding sex on the first date or sex with someone who has had a few drinks than women are responsible for not being raped. Neither is a legal responsibility. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

    Now, on the other hand, is it a safe idea to not have sex until the terms are entirely clear? Yup. Same way it's a safe idea to not walk through the slums of Rio in the middle of night. If a woman (or man) does not want to act safe, well, that's really their own choice.

    As for whether or not 1/4 women are raped... I find that statistic hard to believe. It wouldn't be the first hard-to-believe statistic to be true, by any means, but I've never experienced or heard of such a ratio from experience. Again, that's far from conclusive proof. Of course, when I was taught this ratio in school the definition of rape included things such as; kissing when unwanted, touching when unwanted, flirting when unwanted, sex which the women did not desire but never made a request to stop, sex which the woman later regretted but claimed not to be able to properly evaluate at the time, sex which began under false pretenses, etc. Frankly, given this definition I find the statement '1 in 4 women have been raped' misleading, as the connotation of the word 'rape' is quite different and more extreme in common language than "kissing when undesired".

    The most pressing statistic, in my opinion, should be; what percentage of women are forced into sexual acts (involving the genitalia) or attempted to be forced into sexual acts the failure of which is not due to the lack of attempt by the attacker, wherein it is explicit to the male or female who is not the supposed victim that the sexual act is undesired.

    As for saying that it is rare to have a false conviction, you are wrong on one count and misleading on another. I will try and find the statistics at some point (while I'm not working), but in Canada at least the false conviction rate is surprisingly high. The count on which you are misleading is that it is not a conviction which is necessary to cause damage.

    Case in point, in Ontario a few years ago two girls accused their boss at Wendy's (fast food joint) of assaulting them sexually. Before the trial even began the man had lost his wife, lost his job and pension and was an outcast in his town. Eventually it came out the girls were lying entirely, it was a scheme to get their boss - who they despised - fired. They had even planned on how to come out with their fake stories and who would go first, etc. The man was not convicted, but he now has nothing left in life. Canada being unlike the States, the man cannot sue these girls for every dollar they ever make. (Which is both a plus and minus to the Canadian justice system at times).

    Another example of the extent of protection on sexual 'assault' under some systems today occured at my father's radio station in Toronto. A young rep from his company walked into work one day and offhandedly said to a female colleague "heya babe" before saying to my dad "what's up dude?"

    The woman filed a complaint, the man was transferred. Why? Because otherwise she may have filed suit for sexual harrasment. Because he said 'babe'. Because somehow that's a form of harrasing. If some girl walked in and called me 'stud' I'd smile and think nice things about myself. She took it as something which was not managable to deal with in the workplace.

    Anyway, technically speaking I've been raped.

    When I was in Italy on a private course we stopped over in Sienna. There was a young girl (17), same age as I at the time, who happened to have certain feelings and desires for me. I did not feel the same way and did not return her affection.

    One night after a spat with her roommates she climbed through my window into my room, got in my bed and told me she needed to sleep there. I was already asleep when she came in and just sort of fell back into sleep a minute after she got in with me. Some hours later I woke up and she was holding my ____ with her hand, in between her legs and essentially grinding against me.

    I could easily charge her with rape. No court in the world would believe me or convict her, but if the genders were reversed it would be an open-and-shut case.

    I will say that while I was shocked when I woke up I was by no means upset or scared. This could very easily be only because of no fear of being penetrated (though she later told me she either did or nearly did penetrate herself with me).
     
  16. Exploradora Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    264
    Firstly, rape involves penetration. Different areas define rape differently, but it does involve penetration. Otherwise it is sexual assault. False reporting of sexual assault DOES happen, and because of duke and some other cases it seems like it happens a lot. Sometimes it is suggested that their is false reporting when it is not false reporting, such as when someone withdraws charges or identifies the wrong person. This may suggest false reporting, but in my experience as an advocate it is almost always an actual assault. Women withdraw charges because they are told that the case won't get anywhere, or because they just want to forget. Men are misidentified in cases of stranger rape, because of how the brain responds to traumatic events. The media, in my experience, has suggested both of these cases are false reporting- ESPECIALLY after Duke.

    Innocent women and men should not be legally responsible for preventing rape. Women should not live in constant fear, but they do. Their fear is worse, in my opinion, that the fear men have a false allegations. Men SHOULD fear false allegations in my opinion, because it does happen and they should take action to prevent it from happening. This is not a legal thing, it is a basic safety.

    Ok, there are a lot of problems with numbers on sexual assault and rape. The one in four statistic was given to me by an ill informed instructor, however it was based on a small study of college women in 1982. The statistic used by the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network is currently 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html . 1 in 33 men are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Sexual Assault may or may not involve penetration (ie: rape).

    The 1 in 6 and 1 in 33 statistics are probably the most reliable available. It is estimated that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 to 9 boys are sexually abused. So, as you see, statistics conflict. The problem is that rape is widely underreported. In some cases, like drug facilitated rape or partner rape, the women may not know it is rape. In some parts of the world the rate of rape is very, very high. In Darfur, for instance, the rate of rape is astonishingly high.

    The accepted statistic for false report is 2% to 6%. I would venture to guess the false report rate of rape is the same as the false report rate for any other violent crime. The most recent one I heard was 2%. There are studies that will put it as high as 46%, however we must understand that these statistics are not necessarily measuring false reporting. We have to understand that very few reported rapes are prosecuted just on DNA evidence or just on "her word". Eyewitnesses, evidence of bruising, etc must be present. Or else it is lack of evidence and the DA should not prosecute. Rape is almost always prosecuted only when another crime is committed during the rape, such as breaking and entering, kidnapping, or drug use.

    The false imprisonment you may be thinking of may be satanic ritual abuse. Reports of SRA are nearly always false. There are men in jail today for false allegations for SRA, and that is wrong.
     
  17. draqon Banned Banned

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    #405 and #406....sad realities w/no boundaries
     
  18. Exploradora Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    264
    That case would not have been open and shut if the genders were reversed. In some areas of the U.S. you would have been laughed at by the police. The DA almost always wouldn't prosecute this without other evidence. I know women who have been raped in their sleep by their spouses and they do not even entertain the idea of pressing charges. This is because they know it will not be followed through in. Instead they get orders of protection and leave (that would be my advice to someone in that situation). What happened to you was wrong- however it would never have been an open and shut case for anyone.

    One of the greatest myths of rape and sexual assault is that it is easy to prosecute. That is just plain wrong.
     
  19. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    LOL Men need sex. We will have sex whenever we can. Why the hell do you think we buy women drinks, but to lower their inhibitions and increase the chance they'll consent to sex. Why do we buy you dinner, send flowers, buy chocolate, etc. It's all for sex. Turn down sex on a first date? No frigin' way.

    All of civilization is basically the result of men trying to impress chicks. Why do you think it's men that invent everything?

    So no, we're not going to follow your recommendations.
     
  20. Exploradora Registered Senior Member

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    Ah, so you speak for all men? That's an awfully large burden- spokesman for a tad less than half of the population.
     
  21. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Well, I made it a poll. Let's see what the SciForums men have to say on the subject.
     
  22. Exploradora Registered Senior Member

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    Ah, well judging from sciforums men, and the fact that the poll is recording who votes what, i would guess everyone would agree with you. Someone in this thread actually suggested that rape victims are to blame for rape if they are dressed attractively or provocatively. I guess we should all wear burquas from now on... people are routinely raped in sweatpants and a t-shirt.

    Beyond that, my comment was directed at your statement that all men need sex, and that that is the focus of all of their attention. Do I expect all men to follow my advice? Only if they are paranoid about false accusations of rape. Men being victimized by false allegations is a much rarer occurrence than women who are victimized by actual RAPE. However, there is a constant push against making rape more prosecutable and providing protection to alleged victims because people are afraid of false allegations. It's a strange phenomena.
     
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    madanthonywayne:

    The key word here is "consent".

    The point of this entire thread has been to get through to people that rape is sex without consent. You appear to realise that on some level. So, where's the remaining controversy for you?
     
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