Atheists what is your proof?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by science man, Oct 20, 2010.

  1. SolusCado Registered Senior Member

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    My pleasure. I always enjoy civil discourse.

    I would agree; that is the essential core to Christianity, as evidenced in 1 Corinthians 13 (the last verse of which is "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.")

    I would argue that they represent a branching off of true Christianity. True Christianity remains intact, however much concealed it may be. They have created a corruption, and while they may CALL it Christianity, that does not make it so.

    I am Christian. To what are you referring when you ask why I don't hold the same view of the old testament? (Same view as what?) If you are asking why I don't accept the NT as divine, but do accept the OT, it is because Paul wrote in one of his letters (that was later included in the NT) that the scriptures are complete. Nothing should be added to or removed from them. That would include the entire NT, since it wasn't in the picture at the time of his writing.

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    I agree, if there is a God, he isn't racist. However, I suspect that the ability to communicate with God is a genetic development that first occurred in the Hebrews. During the time of the OT, in a need to protect that genetic marker, it was necessary for the Hebrews to maintain a relatively clean lineage. I believe this is what is meant by "God's chosen people" (remember, no one at that time knew anything about genetics, and wouldn't have been able to describe this in any other way). But you are very correct, that believing one's own way to be the "correct" way, and intolerance of others is a sure-fire recipe to all the atrocities you list. AND, in Christianity, none of those things are taught. (Well, in the NT anyway...)


    I seek SCRIPTURE that is used to justify these atrocities, because it isn't. The crusades, jihads, the inquisitions, have all been motivated by NON-RELIGIOUS factors, and misinformation (i.e., corruption) was used to motivate the masses. Hatred is the cause, not the effect.

    Perhaps now, but my issue with Catholicism is what it did to the name of Christianity for a thousand or so years.

    I didn't feel as though you were singling me out, but rather simply prefaced my response with the statement that I didn't know who you were directing your comment to, so I would go ahead and answer regardless (rather than waiting to let whomever you were targeting speak for themselves).

    Regarding your claim that I am ignoring something... I haven't noticed any specific verses you have raised, but would be happy to provide additional explanation for anything that seems wrong to you. (But please let's not waste time with the Levitical law, which was a set of physical laws for a nation at a specific point of time. There is no indication that they were spiritual guidances, and in fact they largely use the term "unclean" rather than "sin" because they weren't being called out as sins. They were in fact unclean, and in a time where there was no medicine and little technology, in a developing civilization, cleanliness was key in survival.)

    Yes, those who have absconded scripture to control others (like the Catholic Church) make me very skeptical of their intentions as well. Are you suggesting that there are specific verses (or chapters, or books) in the Old or New Testament that fall into that category?
     
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  3. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    SolusCado,

    You must have some thoughts on this.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl1.htm

    Regarding slavery in the OT.

    Do you believe that all of these could have been mis-interpreted from the original Hebrew ?

    If not what does that say about God and/or the possibility that the book can't be trusted being written by men. IOW, men wrote the part about slavery being approved all on their own, if so, what else did they make up.

    Alternatively, god supports the idea.
     
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  5. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Jesus also made a point about selling one's possessions, and giving the money to the poor, and that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.

    Yet how many Christians follow this doctrine? I've yet to meet one.
     
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  7. SolusCado Registered Senior Member

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    Once again, this is part of Hebrew law, no more an indication of spiritual life or guidance than any other nation's laws. Slavery was a reality of the time, and there were laws established to deal with it.
     
  8. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Do you believe the bible is man's interpretation of gods word or not ?

    I know that you don't believe they are gods words, but man's interpretation of his words.

    But now you just want to blame this error, unless you agree with slavery, on man alone.

    So if the latter is your position then what else is in error.
     
  9. SolusCado Registered Senior Member

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    I don't believe it is man's interpretation of his words either. I believe it is a series of writings of men who were inspired by God. Some things are eternal truths, some were messages for certain people at a certain point in time.
     
  10. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    How do you decide which is which ?

    How do you determine what is inspired by god and not ?

    How do you figure out where the stories end and the truth begins ?
     
  11. SolusCado Registered Senior Member

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    Look at the text. It tends to be fairly clear. Is there a passage about which you are in doubt?

    It is my belief (and generally, that of every Christian and Jew) that the entire Old Testament was inspired by God. Thanks to the Catholic Church, it is also the belief of the vast majority of Christians that the NT is also of divine inspiration.

    Well, I believe that it is all "true" but what is unspoken makes for interesting discovery. As with anything in this world, as knowledge increases, so too does our perception of things. So what we perceive to be the MEANING behind something may very well change over time. That doesn't mean that the scripture wasn't always "true", just that we misunderstood its meaning.
     
  12. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first practice to believe.
     
  13. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    SolusCado,

    Yet you have argured that in fact they are not clear and need to be re-interpreted.

    So lets just stick with the OT.

    If it's your belief that the entire OT was inspired by god then he condones slavery or at least allows it. The text is pretty clear about that.

    Slavery isn't one of those things now is it.
     
  14. SolusCado Registered Senior Member

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    600
    At this point it seems as though you are being deliberately obtuse. On the subject of what is law and what is spiritual guidance they are pretty clear. I have been very clear as well that the stuff that is up for re-interpretation is the stuff concerning the physical world, primarily due to the limited knowledge of the physical world of the day.

    Yes, God allowed slavery. It is very clear about that. Owning slaves is not a sin. In fact, the NT is very clear that God really isn't concerned with such material things in the first place. God is concerned with your spiritual nature.
     
  15. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    SolusCado,

    No, just a misunderstanding.

    Wait, first of all don't bring up the NT now. There is no reason to add remember.

    Secondly, you're telling me that owning slaves has no effect on ones spiritual nature. Maybe you can describe spiritual nature in your words where supporting or allowing slavery would not impact on ones spiritual nature.

    Furthermore. As evidence of this supposed word of god being proved false. Answer me this question.

    Do you believe salvery is ok ?

    If not, and I hope you answer no. What kind of god would allow and condone it.

    Can you not see that those are the words of man at the time and not of a god that would know ETERNAL TRUTHS.

    What eternal truths has he laid upon us in the bible ?
     
  16. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    I take advice from each and every religion. Each religion is sure that the others are wrong. Simple.
     
  17. Yosef Registered Senior Member

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    Not 100% accurate. As a Muslim I am required to believe in the Torah and the Gospel. God says that He has revealed the Holy Quran, Gospel and the Torah (+ Psalms and others).

    Here is what He says in the last two verses of the second chapter of the Holy Quran (The Heifer):

    “(285) The apostle believeth in that which hath been sent down from his Lord, as do the faithful also. Each one believeth in God, and His Angels, and His Books, and His Apostles: we make no distinction between any of His Apostles. And they say, “We have heard and we obey. Thy mercy, Lord! for unto thee must we return.” (286) God will not burden any soul beyond its power. It shall enjoy the good which it hath acquired, and shall bear the evil for the acquirement of which it laboured. O our Lord! punish us not if we forget, or fall into sin; O our Lord! and lay not on us a load like that which thou hast laid on those who have been before us; O our Lord! and lay not on us that for which we have not strength: but blot out our sins and forgive us, and have pity on us. Thou art our Sovereign, then help us against the people who do not believe!” Source: Holy Quran – The Heifer 2:385-286​
     
  18. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Missing the point. Do you believe Jesus was the Messiah? No, so you disagree with Christianity. Do you believe there is no heaven? No, so you disagree with Judaism. Do Christians or Jews follow the teachings of Mohammed? No, so they both disagree with you, etc etc.

    The fact that all three religions follow from the same Abrahamic core means nothing. You disagree, you are schisms.
     
  19. SolusCado Registered Senior Member

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    600
    Ok; fair enough.

    I am not quoting it as scripture, but as a text that gives us some insight into Christ and his message. It isn't infallible, but that also doesn't mean in is all wrong either.

    Quite simply, things of the spirit are just not concerned with the physical world. God is concerned with our spiritual well-being, and in a culture where slavery is as common as eating breakfast every morning, why WOULD it impact you negatively. There is much in the Bible, as well as evolutionary psychology, to suggest that the biggest negative impact that "sin" has on us is the damage to our psyches of things like guilt. In a culture where slavery is the norm, why would we feel guilt? For that matter, let me flip the question around on you - why WOULD it impact one's spiritual nature? We as Americans have a tendency to view everything through our own cultural lens and judge the entire world based on it. The fact remains though that slavery was a part of human life for the vast majority of our history. It has only been in the last 150 years or so that we've started seeing it as an abomination, and even then only in certain forms. There are some who would argue that the nature of our society's class system is such that we STILL have slaves.

    Hmm - see above. Like many things in this world, I see slavery as a natural component. God allows nature to take its course. However DON'T conflate condone with allow. I see nothing scripturally to suggest he condones it, and unless you can provide otherwise, don't jump into such assumptions.

    Again, see above. Can you not see that those were laws provided for a nation at the time, and not ETERNAL TRUTHS? Why do you need every word in the Bible to be an eternal truth?

    As for what eternal truths ARE laid down, pretty much everything regarding one's spiritual nature (as that is the only thing that IS eternal). This would include such things as faith, hope, love, generosity, kindness, peacefulness, etc.
     
  20. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    How is "faith" an "Eternal Truth"?
    Or any of those other things.
    What is "true" about them?

    The only eternal truth I am aware of is "What is, is."
     
  21. SolusCado Registered Senior Member

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    600
    I am saying that the things in the Bible that pertain to those subjects are those things that are meant to be eternal truths (and not just point-in-time laws).
     
  22. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Care to provide a few examples, so that I am more clear of what exactly you mean?
     
  23. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Hey Solus, sold those shades yet? I'm sure there's a poor guy that could do with the money. Oh, and then you might also be able to pass through the eye of a needle.
     

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