Atheists & Christians: Argue the OTHER POINT OF VIEW

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Darth Behemoth, Mar 29, 2013.

  1. Balerion Banned Banned

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    The lovey-dovey one depicted by those who don't know any better has no substance. The one depicted in the bible is wicked. And my problem with people who say he was a great man are that they're promoting this wicked ideology without realizing it. If you'd stop conceding this inaccurate portrait of the Christ, maybe Christianity would start to lose some of its mainstream appeal among the non-religious.

    The opposite is true, actually. The torment only stops when you fight back. I was bullied for a short time in 8th grade, until I finally stood my ground and fattened one of their lips. I could walk home in peace after that. Bullies rely on your weakness, on your inability to hurt them back. There is no consequence to their actions, so it becomes a release for their own shortcomings.

    Bullying and war have little in common. Bullies, as I said before, are usually acting out of some frustration. There's never any dispute involved. Wars, on the other hand, usually have something to do with land claims or ideologies. The only commonality between the two phenomenon, actually, is that turning the other cheek is the only sure path to your own destruction.

    Except that's not how it really happens. The only way to make the bully look like a fool is to plant him on his ass. You can stop him by appealing to adults, but you can't make him look stupid without beating him at his own game. And just try applying that mentality to any other context. Turning the other cheek during Hitler's reign would have accomplished what, exactly?
     
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  3. ForrestDean Registered Senior Member

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    They are both incredibly bound and enslaved by a set of beliefs. They are both religions.
     
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  5. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Scientists are not bound by belief. The scientific method is clearly open to new facts and knowledge. There is no faith involved.
     
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  7. ForrestDean Registered Senior Member

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    As long as you're happy with it. That's all that matters.

    Also, I was referring to Atheists and Christians, but yeah, the same applies to scientists as well, and actually pretty much everyone in this reality. The concept of "fact" in a subjective reality can be considered to be an erroneous term if one chooses. But I guess that would be reserved for those who many would perceive to be suffering from delusions... at least for the present moment anyway.
     
  8. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    For atheists, belief is not absolute either. Prominent atheists like Richard Dawkins have repeatedly explained that were sufficient evidence presented for the opposing side, they would have to consider it. Their disbelief in God is also not absolute, since there could be an infinite number of definitions of God, some of which are acceptable. There are very few atheists who would say they are 100% certain there is no god of any kind.
     
  9. ForrestDean Registered Senior Member

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    This is true to an extent, but it appears we are both generalizing. Let me rephrase then.

    Maybe not most, but many Atheists and many Christians are incredibly bound by a set of beliefs that can be extremely painful to one's ego if compromised to the point of becoming frustrated or even hostile towards whatever they perceive to be compromising or threatening their deep attachment. But again, this is not just limited to Atheists and Christians. This applies to most everyone on this planet. This entire reality is held together by a set of beliefs.

    I myself am very much bound by many belief systems due to years of conditioning from a system that dates back for many centuries and even aeons. Letting go and breaking free from these beliefs can take an entire lifetime. It is very much like peeling a very large onion one layer at a time. Not only is this challenging, but it is also quite fun and liberating.

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  10. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    You are generalizing to the point of gross inaccuracy. Atheists generally approve of scientific methods that value doubt and uncertainty. Our beliefs aren't the result of wishful thinking, or resentment, but rather the light of reason. This is in contrast to the religious, who's entire belief system is generally centered around ignoring scientific and historical facts.
     
  11. Rita Registered Member

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    Are you arguing the opposite of what you believe? May the Lord of have mercy on the person who says something that isn't popular in the science community. I will agree with the statement that the science community tends to operate on beliefs, just as much as the religious community. I can not pass up the chance to once again praise the people in this forum for the civility, compared to some other science forums.

    Spidergoat, the religious community believes exactly the same thing about themselves.
     
  12. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    I'm a theist in this thread, but even theists know that they value faith over facts. There is no atheist belief other than there is probably no god.
     
  13. ForrestDean Registered Senior Member

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    Again, that is a matter of perspective that I truly honor and respect. This is certainly true for you I'm sure. Believe me when I say that I 100% respect any and all in their own unique perceptions. Perspectives and beliefs are what makes this world so fascinating and challenging. However, one's truth does not have to be another's. Again, perceived facts are irrelevant in this reality unless one desires to make them relevant, which many many of us do. Facts or truth is static and singular. Truth is nothing more than pure energy in it's native state. Then there are variations of that truth determined by the individual who wishes to experience that truth in their own way - a fabrication of one's mind. Everything we are experiencing in this reality is a fabrication of our mind.

    Just because I am born into a world where eating, drinking, sleeping or even breathing is believed to be required to survive, or a world where there is gravity doesn't mean I have to be attached to that belief. Nor am I required to believe that 1 + 1 is equal to 2 or that there is such thing as this concept called "time", or that the act of moving from point A to point B even exists. The Newtonian laws of physics are completely and totally irrelevant, unless of course one chooses to make them relevant for the purposes of their own experience in this reality.

    I certainly understand the point of this thread. We love to debate, especially on subjects that challenge our beliefs. It's purely egoic to be sure that stems from fear.

    Again, I see no difference between Atheists, Christians, Scientists, or any other groups of belief systems. I also see nothing right or wrong with any of them. They certainly have their use as all things do.
     
  14. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Trust me, you are not a fabrication of my mind. :bugeye:

    Riiiight...

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  15. ForrestDean Registered Senior Member

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    I trust you.

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  16. Rita Registered Member

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    We are in totally agreement about human nature, but disagree about the importance of religion.
    "And forcing their own religion on them". Why do you think they did that?

    A nice thing about belief systems with many gods is they have no reason to knock someone else's ideas about gods. Rome was very tolerant of other beliefs, they just asked that the gods of Rome be respected as well, because the gods gave them a belief system that united Rome and gave the very diverse civilization order.

    India is also very tolerant of other beliefs, and tends to consume all religions into Hinduism.

    Actually at the beginning of Christianity it also assimilated other belief systems, by Christianizing pagan celebrations and pagan notions. Like one morning pagans woke up to a Christian world, without any intention of giving up old beliefs for Christian ones. But suddenly the Easter Bunny and Easter Egg representing new life in Spring, and the resurrection of life in Spring, represented Jesus and his resurrection. The mother goddess and child, becomes Mary and her son Jesus. Frigg another nature goddess figure, common to cultures with female goddess that make things grow, because our Friday. Around the world cultures accepted Christianity because the belief was not so different from their own, and this discovery that others held the same beliefs gave credibility to Christianity being God's truth.

    The US education system was first modeled after Athens education for well rounded individual growth. In this secular education, the word God was found in many text books, along with value statements such as the notion we have a duty to God, family and country. However, acknowledging God does not equal religion. God does not become religion until we attempt to define God, and that is where people get into trouble.


    Turning the other cheek works best if one is large and full of self confidence. It does not work so well for vulnerable people.
     
  17. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    Being "spiritual" isn't going to alter your eternal destination. I mean pagans can be some of the most "spiritual" people around, and I dare say that the vast majority of them will not find themselves rewarded for their heretical practices with a room in God's house. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    What is of primary importance is what you are spiritual about, and it needs to be Jesus. You should be crying out, in spirit, that He is Lord. His sacrifice should be at the core of your very soul. This is the only spirituality that is of any final, positive consequence.
     
  18. Rita Registered Member

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    I was reading about this non reality just today. I believe it was Greeks discussing geometry who said. something to effect that that which is born is not real, because it is always in the process of becoming. For something to be real, like say a triangle, it must be what it is eternally.
     
  19. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sure they have a use, but science is demonstrably true because it works. Computers compute, rockets fly to Mars and beyond, diseases are cured. Just because we perceive things with a subjective perspective, the mind, doesn't mean we cannot discover things that are objectively true.
     
  20. Rita Registered Member

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    I suppose since we are suppose to be arguing the opposite of what we believe, I should be making the argument you made.

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    : On leaving a church, I once complimented to the preacher on how nice his pagan service was, and he didn't look too pleased. It delights me that you speak of paganism and spirituality. Sorry I am not doing a good job of arguing against what we I believe. My heart just isn't into it. :thankyou:
     
  21. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    This sort of theological/metaphysical relativism, or pluralism, or whatever, is total nonsense. You're effectively saying that it doesn't matter whether one recognizes the significance of the sacrifice that God made when He became a man and suffered for our sins in the most horrific manner imaginable. This could not be further from the truth.

    "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

    "Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing."

    Irrational animals, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant! For the love of God, you people must repent. I beg you!
     
  22. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqESR7E4b_8

    No-one can possibly walk away from that and still be an atheist. It would be absurd. If you can, or if you have, then you're in denial, and denial, funnily enough, is sort of like faith. See, scientists will say, about examples like this, that there is only the appearance of design. In other words, they'll admit that the universe looks like it was created. But if this is true, if the universe looks like something made by God, why reject the possibility? Why flatly deny it? Faith, of course. Faith that the science will, one day, finally be able to explain it away.

    A personal God, who possesses the full scope of human emotion (love, anger, jealously, forgiveness, spite etc) is the much simpler explanation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  23. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Do me a favor: Back that statement up with an example of the scientific community operating on belief rather than legitimate science.

    No they don't. Faith is a central aspect of religious belief.
     

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