Atheist Realism?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by ronan, May 12, 2008.

  1. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

    hapiness wont decrease because we are here saying that if it is the truth, in this case, it was the truth since I was born, the world thus won't change

    it is thus in the possibilities in general, not mine. the reality would have less possibilities.

    no, hope is in the esperance to have better. it is not in mistery, it is in the lack of anything, knowledge, matter.... we hope to have, we hope to be, we hope in something that is not now and that we don't have now.

    You beg the question here, because we defined it as fantastic because we define it that science is true, it is probably becaus eyou are so sure of your current belief that for you there is nothing new under the sky, thus a kind of sadness, a monotony about you own universe
    You do not answer the question, the point was to imagine the view true.
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  3. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

    I told you perceptionq dn knowledge are simultaneous, one and the same.

    sensory stimulus? you mean brain and neurons...?

    We do not need anything to perceive. Everything is perceived.

    What stuck you in your perception is because you identify yourself with your perceptions

    unconsciousness can exist but it won't affect consciousness and thus perceptions. In other words it has no role for the perceived world

    consciousness is a necissity for perception, the only thing we can experience.
    eternal because the notion of time is a perception.

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  5. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member


    Okay: KNowledge and perception is one in the same. But how does Consciousness Perceive that which is not all ready there? The knowledge of Consciousness depends upon that knowledge coming from perception for certain basic categories. As such, it either created those, in which case it would seemingly contradict its nature, or it must have met those independent of its actions, which dismisses consciousness as the source of all things.

    Time is a perception? And what is meant by this?

    Basically: Why is there this Consciousness to begin with? What is its source? What is it?

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  7. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    Why would reality having less possibilities make you feel restricted?

    Do you presently have hope for something when you die?

    I've made a general observation that truth (outside the scope of interhuman interaction) tends to be very emotionally neutral. Of course people whom appreciate truth would enjoy it and it sounds like you might be insinuating that what you might consider dull and monotinous truth is beyond other people's ability to appreciate.

    Maybe you didn't undersand the answer... which is I would be surprised that your view is true because up to that point of 'being shown' it is true, reality would have supported something very different. It's like following a deer trail only to find a bag of marbles at the end.
  8. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

    reality having less possibilties will giev reality less possibilities, that ' s it. It would feel less wondefull to what I feel now about reality.
    sometimes I have hopes but I usually try to do not have ones and try to live with what I have and what I am.

    a life after death won't be any more my life.

    because consciousness is intemporal, it always exist, and there is always perceptions, thus other lifes. But they are not mines.

    ok ,
    for you truth is not wondefull, so.
    Me I feel that truth (at least what I consider to be) is a feeling that I like.
    Even in the case of discovering a new solution to a problem or in teh case of the exdistence of consciousness that seem to be beyond human expression.

    No, if it is true, it would means that it was always true, thus what you see is the result of this truth.
    to say that it reality would have been different is to not accept the view as true.

    But saying that only consciousness cause perception does not change anythign of your perception.

    the only thing that change is the possibilities of perceiving things that you would not imagine possible in your framework. it brings more possibilities but do not contradict the actual experience you have and had in the past. else it would be false.

    so please consider again
  9. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

    it perceive everything: you in teh future, yiou in the past, a banana ion the moon in 2000 years... evrtyhing.

    the proprieties of consciousness is to contains all perceptions. categories are perception also. it does need to creates them.

    Time is a perception of continuity and changement.
    Consciousness contaisn everything, your life as a child, your life as now, your life in the future, you perceive time making you a adult with some memories.

    Time do not exist outside consciousness.
    time as no meanign for consciousness like in the theory of relativity time has no meanign for the 4 dimensional space-time manifold.

    thus no idea of creation outside consciousness

    consciousness is necessary for perception, for perceivong your life, my life...
    No source,
    no way to describe it, just a logical concept that explain your perception
    a necessity for perception: no consciousness, no perception

  10. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    Is less 'wonderful' all you would feel? Would you care at all about any impressionable person whom you had formerly sold your view to as being true?

    Unusual response but it's actually alot healthier than the deep hope investment into the paranormal found in many theists.

    Well, you still have yet to provide any evidence for that claim.

    Truth tends to be pretty neutral by itself (again with the exception of interpersonal relationships). When it is associated with a personal investment of some sort it tends to elicit emotional reaction and it's not always going to be good. For example, the truth of mosquitos biting you on a hike is not going to bring someone pleasure while discovering a new property of light would. That is because of the personal investement involved in each. Other things like the knowlede that people collect energy aren't likely to result in emotional reaction because of no personal investment.

    I bet you wouldn't like it was true that you caught herpes.

    I agree. What I am saying is that evidence up to that point of seeing your view as true would have supported something different... just as it does now outside of this thought experiment.

    I am not saying that. I am saying that the EVIDENCE would have supported a different model of reality up to the point of your view being demonstrated as being true.

    The notion of consciousness causing perception doesn't make any sense to me; however, if it ended up being true I would still feel surprised for the reasons I specified. It doesn't matter if my perception doesn't change in that model... I would still be very surprised and that's not an outcome you can influence (you appear to be trying to do so for some reason).
  11. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member


    It is not unusual, please read many mystics such as Shankara, Krishna...
    you seem to only know some theism, before making such generalization, you should open your mind to other believes that yours


    did you ever experiences unconsciousness?
    no because it is impossible, you only have a feeling of having been unconscious but it is not unconsciousness, only a realization that time (changements) has jump.

    furthermore, time is a perception, it has no meaning for consciousness like in the theory of relativity time has no meaning outside the space-time manifold

    for me, whenever I found truth, I found it wonderfull,

    The truth about herpes is probably a truth deep inside you and your habits that made you caught this disease. In that sense when you know it you would be able to heal it. that is wonderfull.

    no it would have not supported something different, everything you see can be explained by the view I advocate

    can we have perceptions without consciousness?
    if you answer yes, why does it makes no sense to you that consciousness is causing perceptions?
    if you answer no, please explain me how
  12. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    I'll paraphrase, how would it make you feel in this scenario knowing that your claim of truth was accepted by some other people as truth (but was ultimately incorrect)? That effectively means you lied to them.

    It is unusual because the behavior is heavily influenced by genetics. I would strongly speculate that for any religious group there will always be a segment whom invests hope in fantasy. Mystics (as well as most sources of philiosophy) aren't valuable to me.

    Yep, evidence for the claim that consciousness is non-temporal and always exists.

    On a sidenote, unconsciousness can also be observed in others (or yourself if you have a video camera).

    Nobody knows what time is (that includes you). Time of course has meaning in any branch of physics. Meaning is the relationship between two or more variables. Outside of space-time, time would still have meaning... it would just be a different relationship. As for consciousness and time, I have no idea what you are talking about; however, one thing is certain... your consciousness is transient in space-time.

    Truth: Humans tourture and kill other humans. Do you find that wonderful?

    Herpes is presently incurable. If you think you can cure it magically, I would be happy to inject you with a strain and watch your magic.

    Except there is no evidence for it so it really doesn't explain anything.

    Consciousness and perceptions are integrated. One doesn't cause the other. Perception is the translated stimulus while consciousness is an epiphenomena.
  13. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

    I lost th track of your question
    It is not important if there are valuable for you or not but you are saying that it is unusual and tell you that there is many mystic that share this view.
    do you believe in life after death? if not why do you say that it is unusual?

    because time is a perception (content of consciousness)
    no you never experience unconsciousness, you assume unconsciousness. only, no justification possible.

    Others are perceptions, these perceptions require consciousness
    You can never experience unconsciousness.
    no need to know what time is, time is a percpetion. hence it is inside consciousness not outside. so no time for consciousness

    the content of consciousness is transient: perceptions.

    you seem to have not understand the most important point I made

    The truth is deeper: survival instinct, protection of family, on a large scale it is wonderful. That is life: death is par of life, it does not make it ugly.

    Some people do not have any mor ethe consequences of it. it can be inside but it does not matter if it does not make anything to you.

    it explains but you seem to not have understood (regarding your saying that you did not see what I was saying about time).

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    justify please

    consciousness an epiphenomena ?
    please explain me what is an epiphenomena

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    Many people talk about that but we have nothing equivalent to describe what it would be.
    give explanation
  14. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    Sorry, I'll try again. You are issuing a claim that your 'view' is true and somewhere out there an impressionable individual has accepted your claim. In the scenario being discussed, science demonstrates that your 'view' is 100% false and that means it was a lie (becuase you originally claimed it as being truth). How would you feel knowing that you lied to everyone and that lie was accepted as truth by at least one impressionable person?

    Nope, I don't believe in life after death; however, that is unusual because most of the worlds population does. Face it, it's an attractive idea.

    Just saying it doesn't make it true. What you could say perhaps is that time might be an illusion as we might exist in every possible past / future scenario simultaneously and it is only our memory in any given moment that gives us a sense of linear change.

    I never said you experience unconsciousness so I am not sure what purpose reiterating that point is. What I can tell you is that a person in an unconsicous state is very real and can be observed.

    No need to know what time is, but here is what it is? You're not making any sense.

    Without a functioning brain, a cross section of spacetime on Earth is not conscious. Functioning brains are transient; hence, your consciousness is transient.

    If you watched your mother being flayed alive, would you feel wonderful?

    Are you implying that if I injected you with herpes then you would magically become asymptomatic?

    I saw what you said about time. It's another unsupported claim on the heap. If you issue a claim of truth then you are saying that reality corresponds to your idea. Objective evidence is a demonstration of that correspondence (i.e. showing that realitya agrees with your idea). That's what you need to show.

    An epiphenomenon is a side-effect of a primary phenomenon. For example, a phenomenon would a rhinovirus living inside of you. An epihenomenon would sneezing.

    In the case of consciousness, the phenomenon would be a functioning brain. An epiphenomenon would be consciousness.
  15. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

    You mean that if your view is right, mine is false and because I am saying it is true, I am lying.
    First lie is usually intentional else it is just a mistake.
    Second science doesn't demonstrate that my view is false, it is compatible with it. My view just relativise science but doe snot make it incompatible.

    It follows that if I am wrong, my mistake is not big, thus I won't feel like a make people sad or anything else bad. I think on the contrary, it helps anyway to live in this world because I do not deny its relative existence.

    First for me there is always life after death. But I do not believe that it is myself who rebirth, in other word after MY death, there are other life (but not mine).
    Attractive idea? It depends: heaven or hell?

    It is true, time is a perception, to say that it is something else also, you have to prove it but you cannot because you will always use perceptions to sustain your claim.
    no, you assume he is unconscious but you cannot know that.

    Because time is a perception it is not outside consciousness, hence it does not affect consciousness
    Again you use brain, but brain is a perception
    no, I would feel sad do not have being able to see the truth before.

    For me truth is beyond bad or good, it is something that transcends our capacity of expression. Until we let go our ego we cannot really see truth.
    disease, death if seen as bad or good, is because we do not see truth.
    no you have to find out why you injected this, for what reason.
    maybe you won't heal anyway but you will be able to live with it.
    It agrees with my idea because it does not contradict it.
    Here you see a causality because you build a biological model of it.
    And in this case these two phenoemena are empirically testable while consciousness is not. if you say it will, it will only be as a brain test, not as consciousness test
    yes but you do not explain how, that is the problem!
    epiphenomena is not explanation, it is the model that link the two.
  16. audible un de plusieurs autres Registered Senior Member

    ronan you are an imbecile do you know what your actually writing, lay of the drugs man they f%&k you up.
  17. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    So in this scenario, even though you made a claim of absolute truth, you wouldn't consider yourself lying because you weren't intentionally trying to deceive others? That is debatable; however, if that were the case that would have meant you were delusional.

    You mean people will be born after you die? Way to state the obvious.

    Either. It's an attractive idea that your specific consciousness would persist after death.

    It is common knowledge that perception is heavily resultant from external stimulus so it is a-ok to use to support a theory. Consquently, I don't know what time is so I can't issue any claim about it (only speculation, hypothesis, and theory).

    Yes I can. By interviewing the subject and seeing the correlation of response vs. brain activity during sleep.

    I still dont' know what you mean about 'time' being a 'perception'. Show some objective evidence for it. You might be able to get away with 'time might be an illusion'.

    Brain is label given to an existent construct in space-time. It exists whether or not a person perceives it.

    'Good' and 'bad' don't objectively exist so I would agree that bias towards judging things as 'good' or 'bad' can prevent people from comprehending truth.

    I also think you're not being honest with yourself. If you saw your mother flayed alive I think you would feel something very different and for very different reasons. The point being that truth is not always going to leave you with a warm fuzzy feeling as you claimed it would for you.

    Wow, you just did some major backtracking...but thats ok. If you're admitting that you cannot magically cure herpes or magically keep it asymptomatic then are finally aligning your thoughts to reality.

    Are you joking? I can turn your consciousness on and off like a light switch with chemicals and a synringe.

    The results of consciousness are testable.

    You mean I don't explain how billions of neurons acting as a multitiude of supercomuters results in consciousness? Of course not, that isn't known yet. What is known is that it is the 'hardware' responsible for consciousness and if it is removed then consciousness disappears.

    Also, your statement made something very clear. A gap in knowledge for you is an opportunity to fill the void with fantasy. It's a human behavior that has been dubbed 'God of the gaps'.
  18. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

    delusional like you if you were false about what you affirm. thatd oes not add anything else
    Yes, it was indeed obvious
    not in hell
    No you cannot , you have to assume that brain activity cause consciousness.
    time is a perception is the minimum truth that you can say about time.
    All other are speculation like you said.
    no it is also a perception, remmber the dream, but you won' t accept it, so jump this and live happily

    I would be sad I told you.
    But for mke truth is wether relative (to a set of axiom or belief) or absolute.
    Absolute truth is beyond good or bad. Because I am a human with an ego, I am not in absolute truth but a relative one.if my mother die I will be sad.
    No it is not a backtraching,
    First remember I said that you can erase its symptom which is actually possible.
    Many people have herpes but do not have any effect. It doe snot always surfaced on the skin.

    But I also say that you do not need to make it disappear (on the skin) to make you happy: you can live happy with a cancer, an herpes, a cut leg...

    You assume it will. I never experiences unconsciousness.
    If you will I think time will jump but I ll never experience unconsciousness.
    On your side you only see consciously my behavior changing.
    consciousness is always there.
    you mean a brain that work in a wakeful state or dreaming. It is the brain that is testable, not consciousnes itself.
    Please read Harnad.
    no it is not neither because you have only its verbal report or a b brain activity report at disposition. Nothign about consciousness. Subjective view is not accessible

    it is not a gap in knowledge that I fill. sorry. Please read the thread, I answered this easy attack.
  19. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member


    You are trying very hard not to understand things that are well known and rather self evident. Every atheist position I have noted in this thread is supported by evidence and your position is not. The only truth coming from your arguments ia s demonstration of your psychological needs, but beyond that there is nothing of value. I'm done with this thread.
  20. audible un de plusieurs autres Registered Senior Member

    ronan, I did try to warn you, so I'll try again, stay off the drugs, it f^&ks you up.
  21. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

    it is too late

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    Learning is the strongest drug but it does help.

    Try it, you won't be disappointed

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  22. ronan Only Consciousness Exists Registered Senior Member

    I have no special psychological need, do not worry for me.

    You have a strange definition of self evidence.
    consciousness exist is self evident but "brain cause consciousness" is not.

    I understand you stop here because you could not justify your assumption. I asked everybody here, nobody could justify "brain cause consciousness" , some try to use the analogy of software but failed.

    You should realize that it is not possible and see that the alternative are dualism or consciousness monism.

    but dualism fails also, thus only consciousness monism is acceptable.

    Maybe you ll realize this later. It will makes you see the world in a more wonderful way, I bet.

    try can get out of your dream, like this you ll maybe be able to see that it is only a dream.

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    Best of luck Crunchy_Cat
  23. audible un de plusieurs autres Registered Senior Member

    If I need to learn gibberish, and lunacy, I will join the school of Ronan.
    But has of now, I am very happy with reality, thanks anyway.
    just remember to stay off the drugs.

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