Atheism versus Science

Many atheists I encounter on the internet feel that biblical faith is somehow the opposite of science. But they are in hopeless contradiction. Furthermore, they suppose that somehow atheism is synonymous with science. Well nothing could be further from the truth.

First of all, Modern science has it roots in the Christian faith. Nearly all of the founders of the various branches modern science were in fact, bible believing Christians. That science is somehow impeded by Christianity. is a fallacy. Science has advanced Because of Christianity.

Atheism however, is not compatible with true science. Atheists have simply hijacked science and created a religion out of it. Atheists love to pretend they are "rational", but they are not. Atheism is hopelessly self contradictory! How can you prove that no God exists? If you state that the proof is with those who hold to the affirmative position, you must then prove that statement, since it is an affirmative position!

Atheism borrows logic from the Bible, since the immaterial laws of logic are inexplicible to the materialist atheist, but predicted by the biblical theist. While it is true that absolute proof of the existance of God is not possible, it is so likely as to be "self evident" to most people, which is why athesits will always be in the vast minority, as vocal as they may be.

Since science is rooted in Christianity and is based upon the principle of causality, it is incompatible with atheism, which posits no first cause. Everything which has a beginning has a cause. It is generally agreed that the universe had a cause, therefore there must be a God.

 

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No it doesn't.

Simply because at the time the sciences were founded nearly everyone was a believer.

Really?
Such as the cases where religion stated that X was true and science disagreed (and had evidence) but was still over-ridden.
Geocentric solar system, flat Earth, etc etc etc.

Atheism - no belief in god not a belief that god does not exist.

Scientifically speaking the one does not follow at all from the other.
Poorly thought arguments all round.
Maybe you should have read more posts before making this one.

 

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Obviously. You're preaching to the choir. Every normal scientist in the world agrees with you. Well said though...

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Apparently, there is no end to absurdity.

 

Atheists feel this way? Have you ever spoken to a theist? I don't know where you've been looking, but atheists are not the ones on the attack. It's quite the contrary. And not just on the interwebs...

No, it doesn't. Science is the study of things, whereas faith teaches you to believe what you're told without questioning it. Faith is illogical by nature, so it cannot be the root of scientific study. Perhaps because of the rigid dogmas of ancient religions, people's curiosity as to the alternative explanation for things was piqued, but that's as close as you'd get to "roots".

Sigh...I suppose you have some evidence to support this? No? OK, well try this on for size: early scientists had to contend with religious institutions that had real power, and heresy and non-belief were things you could have been killed for. So of course you'd hear that such-and-such was thanks to God, or that so-and-so was a God-fearing man, but the truth is you can't rely on those accounts because it simply was unwise to admit that you didn't believe in God. And by unwise, I mean suicidal.

Oli already pointed out the whole problem with the Geocentric solar system, and the flat-earth, but how about recently, like the whole refusal by our Evangelical Christian president to federally fund stem cell research? That is Christianity, as usual, standing in the way of scientific advancement.

But let's play a little game here...name me one instance in which Christianity was the cause of science advancing. Please, take me seriously and answer that.

Well, that is to assume atheism is the active belief that no gods exist. I contend that it is not. I have conceded in other threads that perhaps we need to change the definition of it, considering how vague it is, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume that you're talking about anti-theists...

In that case, I agree that taking the position of absolute certainty that no gods exist is pretty foolish. But let's also note that most theists (especially the ones here) believe that a god does exist, and they have no more evidence for their position than the anti-theist does for his...you see how now you happen to be stumbling into "Pot, meet kettle" territory?

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Buh-wha...?

You're not talking about logic, you're talking about faith. I hate to be the one to say that to you, but you can't compare faith to logic. It does not work that way. That's like comparing apples to grenades.

It could also be that atheists are in the statistical minority because it is still rather taboo in most social circles to admit to being an atheist, and that includes family circles. For as frank of a conversation as I am capable of having with my mother, the thought of saying to her "Ma, there ain't no such thing as God" to her breaks my heart. I'd never say it to her or around her.

Or it could also be that we are a really young species, and only now starting to pull our heads out of the sand. Perhaps this growing number of folks who don't believe in a god is just the first step towards the next stage of our civilization. It is entirely possible.

Again, what do you base the claim that science is rooted in Christianity?

Where is this generally agreed? Your house? Your church?

See, what you fail to understand about science (what a shock) is that not having every slice of pizza doesn't mean that pizza doesn't exist. You keep talking about logic, and yet you just can't seem to wrap your mind around this really simple and logical idea.

To jump from "We don't know what first caused the universe" to "It must have been God" is as illogical a leap as one could possibly make. Replace that second line with "It must have been a giant red paper clip", and it's about as probable (and logical) as assuming it must have been God.

Once again, just so you really understand this...just because we don't know what the first cause was does not mean that the entire idea is wrong; it does not invalidate the Big Bang, it does not invalidate evolution (which I'm sure you know just as little about as you do logic and causality), and most importantly, it does not automatically mean that the answer is God. You don't even know if such a being is capable of existing, so let's not go jumping to the assumption that he's the answer.

 

Early Scientists who were Christians:
Francis Bacon (1561–1626) Scientific method.
Galileo Galilei (1564–1642) (WOH) Physics, Astronomy Galileo ‘twist’ and The Galileo affair: history or heroic hagiography?
Johann Kepler (1571–1630) (WOH) Scientific astronomy
Athanasius Kircher (1601–1680) Inventor
John Wilkins (1614–1672)
Walter Charleton (1619–1707) President of the Royal College of Physicians
Blaise Pascal (1623–1662) Hydrostatics; Barometer
Sir William Petty (1623 –1687) Statistics; Scientific economics
Robert Boyle (1627–1691) (WOH) Chemistry; Gas dynamics
John Ray (1627–1705) Natural history
Isaac Barrow (1630–1677) Professor of Mathematics
Nicolas Steno (1631–1686) Stratigraphy
Thomas Burnet (1635–1715) Geology
Increase Mather (1639–1723) Astronomy
Nehemiah Grew (1641–1712) Medical Doctor, Botany
Isaac Newton (1642–1727) (WOH) Dynamics; Calculus; Gravitation law; Reflecting telescope; Spectrum of light (wrote more about the Bible than science, and emphatically affirmed a Creator. Some have accused him of Arianism, but it’s likely he held to a heterodox form of the Trinity—See Pfizenmaier, T.C., Was Isaac Newton an Arian? Journal of the History of Ideas 68(1):57–80, 1997)
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz (1646–1716) Mathematician
John Flamsteed (1646–1719) Greenwich Observatory Founder; Astronomy
William Derham (1657–1735) Ecology
Cotton Mather (1662–1727) Physician
John Harris (1666–1719) Mathematician
John Woodward (1665–1728) Paleontology
William Whiston (1667–1752) Physics, Geology
John Hutchinson (1674–1737) Paleontology
Johathan Edwards (1703–1758) Physics, Meteorology
Carolus Linneaus (1707–1778) Taxonomy; Biological classification system
Jean Deluc (1727–1817) Geology
Richard Kirwan (1733–1812) Mineralogy
William Herschel (1738–1822) Galactic astronomy;
James Parkinson (1755–1824) Physician (old-earth compromiser*)
John Dalton (1766–1844) Atomic theory; Gas law
John Kidd, M.D. (1775–1851) Chemical synthetics

 

Proves nothing, my friend. You can't prove that any of them were legitimate theists, nor can you prove that any of them were good scientists.

Nor does this prove that science has any roots in Christianity.

For example:

"I created the iPod. I am an atheist."

Does this illustrate that the iPod has its roots in atheism?

 

No. Because God created the universe so man is fooling himself if he thinks he creates anything.

 

But how do you reach that conclusion? Faith. Not logic--faith.

 

Wrong. Yes faith is involved. In a logical syllogism the major premise is assumed through faith.

 

What is logical to one appears illogical to the other, it reminds me of that south park episode. "our logic is the greatest".


On one hand it seems logical that god created the universe, he put the first actions in motion, the creator, everything after the creation is manipulation of what is already created in existence, transformations occur.

On the other hand, it seems logical that we do not know what created the universe or how it got here. We try to study the universe and nature to grasp a better understanding of it and we reject god due to lack of solid evidence.


I see logic in both sides.


peace.

 

I don't know what a logicical is...I'm assuming it's a logic popsicle...anyway, faith has nothing to do with logic.

Faith is your belief in mythology. There is nothing logical about that. Faith is you believing that after our physical bodies die, we are born into a new, spiritual realm despite none of us having ever seen, heard, touched, smelt, felt, or tasted this hypothetical place. Faith is living your live by the morals born in the Bronze Age. There is no logic to faith.

 

Faith in heaven might be the only way that your consciousness reaches heaven after death, I often think that what you truley believe happens after death will happen. Your consciousness might make some kind of quantum impression on the universe, if you believe you will not exist then you will not exist. If you believe your consciousness will live on it will live on.


Maybe your own guilty mind sends you to heaven or hell depending on your outlook. It is possible that your mind lives on after death I would like to think it does. The universe is spectacular and incredible I would not put it past existence for it to be true. the sheer fact that anything exists alone is enough to make me think anything is possible.


God does not seem so far fetched to me anymore, the more I look deeper into the complexity of life and existence the more I realise something great is going on.


peace.

 

LOL. Logical syllogism. Look it up. You might learn something but I highly doubt it.

 

Well noody is going to learn anything if we ll talk to each other as if they are idiots.

You guys have opposite logical standpoints, you do not accept each others logic, but you can get your point across better if you remove sarcastic and defensive comments. People will only be angered if you take the wrong stance when approaching people.


Did you know that people firstly take notice of what your actualy saying a total of around 10-15% they take notice of the way your saying it roughly 85-90%.

So what your saying will only be taken into consideration if you present yourself in a polite and non aggressive manner. I had to take courses on people skills and communicative psycology in order to improve my teaching ability, because I was too aggressive in my methods.



peace.

 

I appreciate your brainpower, bro, but that's like saying Santa only exists if you believe in him. C'mon. We're more adult than that, aren't we?

You're almost there, Chi. Accepting that you don't know everything does not have to lead to you caving in and believing anything. Not knowing is a pretty damn good position.

Nothing of substance? No? Didn't think so.

You've been off my ignore list for all of five minutes, and I'm already regretting it.

 

There you go.

 

Maybe santa does exist, like in southpark Episode 'imagination land'. lol

Anyway, I have read most holy books the world has to offer, I don't believe in them, any of them. I do however see the merits in the philosophy of a creator God, I have not dismissed the idea of god existing but I do dismiss all of the fluff surounding such a being.

I tolerate religions because I think they may yet have something to teach me, I like all of my learning resouces to remain open. I also think that our conscious minds are alot more than meets the eye, there is no telling what universal imprints our consciousness makes on existence.

I thought the more I learn the further away from god my understanding would take me, but it has had the opposite effect, the more I come to learn about the universe and especialy life on earth the more sense a creator makes to me.

peace.

 

"Proves nothing, my friend. You can't prove that any of them were legitimate theists, nor can you prove that any of them were good scientists."

depends upon what you consider "proof". I can demonstrate that they claimed to be Christians. I can demonstrate that many of them saw their faith as informing their pursuit of science and they were all great scientists by any reckoning. But somehow I feel this is not going to be good enough for you

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"Nor does this prove that science has any roots in Christianity."

at the very least, it proves that science was not impeded by Christianity at its inception. It proves that modern science began in the Christian west. And it proves that most of its founders were Christians (actually, it is a list I am asserting is of early Christian scientists. If you wish to pick a few at random I can look them up and give references proving their Christian faith. But even Dawkins has acknowledged this as I recall, so you may be the last atheist to get the talking points. Check your email)

"For example:
"I created the iPod. I am an atheist."
Does this illustrate that the iPod has its roots in atheism?"

Your example is not equivalent to mine. I concede that atheists have helped to advance science, there is not doubt about this. But my argument is that the origin of modern science is firmly rooted in Christianity in that it began in Christian countries by Christian founders who were in many cases outspoken in their faith and in fact, saw their faith as the reason for their pursuit of science. Here are some quotes:

Johannes Kepler [1571-1630]
Astronomy/Laws of Planetary Motion
"I had the intention of becoming a theologian...but now I see how God is, by my endeavors, also glorified in astronomy, for 'the heavens declare the glory of God.'"
"I am a Christian...I believe... only and alone in the service of Jesus Christ...In Him is all refuge, all solace."
"Let my name perish if only the name of God the Father is thereby elevated."
"[God] is the kind Creator who brought forth nature out of nothing."
___________________________________________________________________________

Blaise Pascal [1623-1662]
Scientist noted for work in physics, hydrostatics, vacuums; inventor of mechanical calculator
"Jesus Christ, I have separated myself from Him:
I have fled from Him, denied Him, crucified Him.
Let me never be separated from Him.
We keep hold of Him only by the ways taught in the Gospel.
Renunciation, total and sweet.
Total submission to Jesus Christ..."
{from a manuscript dated Monday November 23, 1654 and found in his own handwriting in his coat at his death}

"Knowing God without knowing our own wretchedness engenders pride. Knowing our own wretchedness without knowing God engenders despair." [Pascal - Pensees no 527]
*Also famous for "Pascal's Wager"--a powerful defense of the Christian faith
_____________________________________________________________________________

Robert Boyle [1627-1691]
Founder of Modern Chemistry/Gas Dynamics
Governor of Missionary organization for propagating the gospel in New England
Personally financed the translation of the Bible into Irish, Turkish, and Arabic
Author of "The Christian Virtuoso" reflecting on the study of nature for Christians
Author of Christian devotional book, "Occasional Reflections"
His will after his death financed the "Boyle Lectures" which were lectures in defense of Christianity
"From a knowledge of His work, we shall know Him"
"Christ's passion, His death, His resurrection and ascension, and all of those wonderful works which He did during His stay upon earth, in order to confirm mankind in the belief of His being God as well as man."
____________________________________________________________________________

Sir Isaac Newton [1642-1727]
Mathematician, Physicist
Inventor of calculus
Law of universal gravitation
Newton's three laws of motion:
1) Law of inertia 2) Force=mass*acceleration 3) Principle of action and reaction
Published "Newton's Prophecies of Daniel"
after his study and translation of the Book of Daniel [in the Bible]
"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition."

"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history."

" This thing [a scale model of our solar system] is but a puny imitation of a much grander system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a designer and maker; yet you, as an atheist, profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?"

____________________________________________________________________________

Sir William Herschel [1738-1822]
Astronomist. Discovered Uranus, several nebulae, and binary stars.
First to accurately describe the Milky Way Galaxy
“All human discoveries seem to be made only for the purpose of confirming more and more
the Truths contained in the Sacred Scriptures.”
"The undevout astronomer must be mad."
_____________________________________________________________________


Samuel Morse [1791-1872]
Inventor of the telegraph [Morse's sketch of the railway telegraph above]
"Education without religion is in danger of substituting wild theories for the simple commonsense rules of Christianity."
First message sent by the electric telegraph:
"What hath God wrought"
{This is found in the Bible; Numbers 23:23}
{The message was sent from the Supreme Court Room in the Capitol to the railway depot at Baltimore; May 24, 1844}
{In one letter, Samuel Morse wrote "What hath GOD wrought" by capitalizing and underlining "GOD" twice!}
______________________________________________________________

Michael Faraday [1791-1867]
Inventor of the electric generator and the transformer
Discovered Benzene--used to make plastics, nylon and dyes
Produced the first test tubes
Described Field Theory
*Hailed by Albert Einstein as the foundation for his own scientific discoveries*
Elder in his church for over 20 years
"Speculations? I have none. I am resting on certainties. 'I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.'"
"A Christian finds his guide in the Word of God, and commits the keeping of his soul into the hands of God. He looks for no assurance beyond what the Word can give him, and if his mind is troubled by the cares and fears which assail him, he can go nowhere but in prayer to the throne of
grace and to Scripture."
"Since peace is alone in the gift of God; and as it is He who gives it, why should we be afraid? His unspeakable gift in His beloved Son is the ground of no doubtful hope." --[1861 letter]
"The Bible, and it alone, with nothing added to it nor taken away from it by man, is the sole and sufficient guide for each individual, at all times and in all circumstances…For faith in the divinity and work of Christ is the gift of God, and the evidence of this faith is obedience to the commandment of Christ."
____________________________________________________________________________

Matthew Maury [1806-1873]
The "Father" of oceanography
Aided in the laying of the first trans-Atlantic cable
Maury believed Psalm 8:8, which speaks of the "paths of the seas" , and he discovered "oceanic currents"
Maury described atmospheric circulation and showed that it was already described in Ecclesiastes 1:6
Maury showed Job 28:25 to be true with respect to the weight of the winds.

"The Bible is true and science is true, and therefore each, if truly read, but proves the truth of the other."
_____________________________________________________________________________

James Prescott Joule [1818-1889]
Described the First Law of Thermodynamics: The Law of Conservation of Energy
[American Biochemist Isaac Asimov said that the First Law of Thermodynamics is
"one of the most important generalizations in the history of science"]
Kinetic Theory of Gases
"Joule-Thomson" effect--the basis of refrigeration
A unit of energy [work] in physics is now called a "joule"

"It is evident that an acquaintance with natural laws means no less than
an acquaintance with the mind of God therein expressed."
"Order is manifestly maintained in the universe...governed by the sovereign will of God"
"After the knowledge of, and obedience to, the will of God, the next aim must be to know something of His attributes of wisdom, power, and goodness as evidenced by His handiwork."
_____________________________________________________________________________

James Clerk Maxwell [1831-1879]
Statistical Thermodynamics, Field equations of electricity, magnetism, light

" No theory of evolution can be formed to account for the similarity of molecules,
for evolution necessarily implies continuous change."

"Almighty God, Who has created man in Thine own image, and made him a living soul that he might seek after Thee,
and have dominion over Thy creatures, teach us to study the works of Thy hands, that we may subdue the earth to our use, and strengthen the reason for Thy service; so to receive Thy blessed Word, that we may believe on Him Who Thou has sent, to give us the knowledge of salvation and the remission of our sins. All of which we ask in the name of the same Jesus Christ, our Lord." {prayer written by Maxwell and found amongst his notes}

Maxwell was an elder in the church he helped establish near his home.
__________________________________________________________________________

Louis Pasteur [1822-1895]
Father of Microbiology, developed "pasteurization"
"The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator."
"Science brings men nearer to God."
_____________________________________________________________________________

Jean-Henri Fabre [1823-1915]
Entomology, Biology
Author of 8-volume series "Souvenirs Entomologiques"
detailing the behavior and life history of many species

"Without Him, I understand nothing; without Him, all is darkness…Every period has its manias.
I regard Atheism as a mania. It is the malady of the age.
You could take my skin from me more easily than my faith in God."
______________________________________________________________________________

Sir Joseph Lister [1827-1912]
Father of antiseptic surgery, first to wire fractures, developed dissolving sutures
"I am a believer in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity"
________________________________________________________


Lord Kelvin [William Thomson] [1824-1907]
Physicist, Laws of Thermodynamics, Absolute temperature scale, inventor
"With regard to the origin of life, science...positively affirms creative power."
"Overwhelmingly strong proofs of intelligent and benevolent design lie around us...
the atheistic idea is so non-sensical that I cannot put it into words."

 

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This does not seem like the work of random chance.

peace.