Atheism & Theism...A Common Denominator

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by PsychoticEpisode, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    Once again, Scientists never disproved. The work of scientists speaks for itself and nothing in there work would lead an logical unemotional unbiased observer to see science taking a position on god other than to say that god is not necessary.

    The fact that scientists make better predictors of the future and of cause and effect than priests do shows that scientists have a more useful understanding of their world than priests do; but it would be very unscientific to try to make a conclusion about the existence of god based on the fact that scientists have superior abilities to make predictions.

    Only somebody who does not understand what science is would think that science has taken a position against the existence of god.
     
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  3. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    I don't think you have real (scientifically valid) evidence for the existence of god. I am guessing that you have evidence for the existence of occurrences that would be improbable according to models of the universe based on the agreed upon known science. Documentation of the improbable is not the same as evidence for god.

    Faith is not scientific evidence. Feelings of knowing is not evidence. Knowing may be an illusion.

    I can't see how it could be possible to have evidence for or against god. Anything could be explained as the actions of god and anything could be explained as the as yet unknown natural laws of science.
     
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  5. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Proof is not the issue.

    jan.
     
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  7. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    So true, Amen, & Mega dittos.

    Atheism and theism are mirror images of each other and are both based on faith while science is based on doubt.
     
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I trust you believe it for personal reasons, but this isn't going to convince anyone. That is the essence of this thread, are there compelling and sound reasons to accept or reject the hypothesis of God? I think we can dismiss your appeals as something that applies only to you.

    Yes, science says that God is unnecessary to explain the things that God is supposedly necessary to explain. That is enough to dismiss it as a hypothsis. However, it doesn't stop there. Science can also prove that the qualities attributed to (the Judeo/Christian/Islamic) models of God are inherently contradictory. I refer to Stenger: God: The Failed Hypothesis
    How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist.




    Not to you, but it's necessary if you want to convince anyone else.
     
  9. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Hell is certain?
     
  10. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    You are not perceiving god. You perceive something which you assume is god.
     
  11. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Bullshit. Atheism makes no claims & has nothing to be faithful to or about.
     
  12. noodler Banned Banned

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    nirakar:
    "I can't see how it could be possible to have evidence for or against god. Anything could be explained as the actions of god and anything could be explained as the as yet unknown natural laws of science."

    You can't see because you aren't looking. Evidence is direct experience, to start with; scientific evidence is stated in words, that correspond to factual accounts, measurements with external equipment (except you have equipment too, built in. You wouldn't be able to do any external measuring if you didn't have "god-given" senses).

    "Seeing how" isn't the same as seeing, is it? What you mean is you can't explain how or why God exists; you can't deny it with scientific reason (check out what Newton actually said, try to ignore the hyperbole and put his words into a modern cosmological context).

    Faith is a tricky customer. We say we know what faith is, but then we can't really put this into words except very vaguely; almost to the extent of meaninglessness. However, saying what faith is and having it aren't the same thing either.

    I think of faith like this: I have faith that I will wake up if I fall asleep.

    However, I can't really believe this will definitely happen, I might stay asleep (in a coma, say), or die for some reason I haven't considered. Faith in my ability to wake up, is based on my experience of having successfully awoken many times, after falling asleep. Unconscious faith doesn't make sense at all; it's definitely a conscious act, having faith (in anything). Can you believe anything when you're asleep?

    More to the point, claiming that nobody can provide evidence of God's existence/non-existence, is incorrect and unscientific. Can you think of a scientific experiment that would do either? What would be recorded and how? What kinds of instrumentation would be used, and could an experiment use ONLY human subjects and a vocal record (which would be: anecdotal personal experience)?

    Have any experiments been done (to investigate "God" or otherwise) in this manner, devoid of "scientific equipment", and relying completely on human perception?

    (Well, yeah... quite a few in fact, have been.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  13. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    -=-

    I do not have faith I will wake.
    That would be absolutely useless, at best.
     
  14. noodler Banned Banned

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    Ah, so you choose to believe you won't wake up, then? Or are you choosing to believe you don't need to believe you will?

    When you fall asleep, or rather some time before you do, do you consider it absolutely useless that you're falling asleep?
     
  15. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    -=-

    Were you awake when you wrote that???
     
  16. noodler Banned Banned

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    You tell me...
    (what's an "awake"?)
     
  17. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    spider,

    I don't think she's trying to convince you.

    jan.
     
  18. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    So prsent the evidence so it can be examined. Otherwise its not really evidence, its just you claiming its evidence.
     
  19. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    Just saying you had an experience is insufficient to know if what you are saying is correct.

    The difference between the experience of my coffee cup and the experience of pink elephants is I can share the experience of my coffee cup with you, but the crazy person can share the experience of pink elephants with any one.

    If there is an actual god, external to your imagination, then you should be able to share that experience with others.

    If it is just your imaginations then there is nothing actual to share.

    Part of the problem here is you keep calling it "evidence."

    Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. Giving or procuring evidence is the process of using those things that are either a) presumed to be true, or b) were themselves proven via evidence, to demonstrate an assertion's truth. Evidence is the currency by which one fulfills the burden of proof.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence

    You are giving us nothing by which we can "determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion." For it to actually be evidence, you have to share it so we can verify it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  20. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    My mind is as big on the inside as it is on the outside.
     
  21. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    You lie to us and you lie to yourself. You lie about lying.
     
  22. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    What you really mean is that you WANT to believe you talk with gods, because that make you "special" amongst the rest of us. It's little more than attention whoring.
     
  23. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    i don't give a shit if you believe me or not. you are one of those out here that seems to think it's soooo damn important whether you believe me or not. i don't care. and me posting my experiences out here and my opinions is no more whoring than anyone else who does. it might make you feel good to think i'm the only one who's experienced god, but i am not, and i've never said i am.

    you are so jaded and manipulative and biased it's sickening. it's insecurities.
     

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