Atheism & Lies

Allright, so you atheists out there how do you feel about lying? Even though as Atheist we are still able to have morality and ethics without some supreme deity to enforce them, is it unethical/immoral to lie? Even if it benefits others?

 

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I'll bet you will get as many answers as there are atheists, but here's my personal opinion on lying:

I have always tried in my life to be as absolutely open and honest as possible. We only have one life...why deceive others or yourself? What is the benefit of lying? I can't think of a time I have had to lie for the benefit of others...Usually people lie for personal reasons.

I have many times made the commitment to always answer truthfully no matter what I am asked. This includes telling co-workers things that probably hurt my career.

I could into detail but I'll just say that lying is anti-truth and therefore it is what I consider "evil".

 

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I lie only if it is profitable or I gain smth from it.

in other cases - no

 

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Originally posted by Cactus Jack
Even though as Atheist we are still able to have morality and ethics without some supreme deity to enforce them, is it unethical/immoral to lie?
I find moral absolutism, or any absolutism for that matter, to usually be the result of false premises. Morality is relative to the situation it is applied in. Most people who claim moral absolutism are usually being disingenuous about it or can be found to be hypocritical in their actions.

Be that as it may, I find that truth is usually the better route. Lies tend to compound the problems they are designed to avoid and they often assure that the underlying problems are never addressed, much less resolved. Still, there are instances where lying is appropriate or simply expedient and I think there are times when it can be said to be morally preferable (e.g. When the truth would cause needless distress or larger problems.) Of course, the difficulty lies in determining the difference.

~Raithere

 

I lie like a rug. Really. I couldn't begin to tell you how often I lie every day. I'm sure that others lie to me just as often. I thank God (figuratively) that we lie to each other so often!

Of course I'm referring here to the phalanx of polite and diplomatic untruths we tell daily. If we told each other exactly how we feel the moment the thought came into our heads; I doubt we'd ever get through a day without a fist-fight.

You don't tell the old woman that her perfume is strong enough to kill a horse. You don't tell a young woman that she is fat. You don't tell a man that his hair is thinning. When someone blunders into you on the sidewalk and subsequently asks for your pardon; you say, "Of course," even when you feel like telling them to watch where they are going. Little lies are the grease of society that keeps us from each other's throats.

I've had a number of people in the past tell me, "From now I'm going to tell everyone exactly how I feel." Have you heard similar proclamations? In any case, they rarely last out the week. Occasionally we do meet people who bumble through their entire lives lacking the rudiments of tact and diplomacy. We usually cringe at the sight of them. Steven Wright said, "The only substitute for good manners is fast reflexes." You might say that we tell these diplomatic lies to prevent our getting punched in the face, but we generally tell them simply to keep the peace and prevent hurt feelings. I barely consider these to be lies.

The next common lie is told to make ourselves look good. This is "bullshit," or put more gently, "embellishment." While we all are likely guilty of this to a small degree, no one likes to hear a man excessively berate or exalt himself. It's one thing to put one's best foot forward, it's another to bullshit. While not necessarily an evil, these types of lies are very tiresome to listen to. Besides, our built-in truth detectors quickly ferret out the bullshitters among us and we learn to discount what these people say.

Think of any given person that you know well. You've already assigned a "reliability" rating to the things this person tells you. People I know fall within a large range of the reliabilty spectrum. If someone with a low reliability rating tells me, "It's raining," I'd first have to wonder about their motivation for the statement before I could even begin to accept the statement. I don't despise these folks, though I don't much respect them.

It's often been noted that good bullshitters need good memories. I learned long ago that no matter how good I could make myself sound, it simply wasn't worth the effort to remember what I said, to whom. When someone questions what you say, as long as you've been truthfull you've the luxury of calling upon witnesses and the evidence of facts to back you up. Liars can't do this. Moral implications aside, to tell the truth rather than to embellish is by far the easiest route for lazy men (like me) to follow.

The last and most contemptible of lies are those told intentionally to hurt another person or to gain personal advantage from others in the telling of the lie. Such lies are far from mere diplomacy or embellishment. These are wicked, and the people who tell these lies are wicked. I don't see the need for much commentary about these types of lies.

Finally, I don't see the fact that there is no "Great-Spirit-In-The-Sky," has much at all to do with our telling lies to each other.

Michael

 

the only person I don't lie to and say everything I think is my big sister (she lives in uk, she's 26). we daily talk with her on yahoo messenger.

 

Like ortho the idea to me is that lieing should be done when necessary. I see no problem in telling little lies but in general I am completely honest with everyone around me. Some people love that, some people hate it.

 

Hm. Lying requires quite a bit of mental effort to remember your lies (if you don't want to get caught like 2 seconds later), so I really don't bother lying. And besides, lying is a violation of mutual trust between human beings (in my oh so humble opinion)

 

Anyone read "The Citadel" by AJ Cronin? The main char does not believe in a god but he's quite the epitome of the virtuous doctor.

 

I recommend to read People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil by M. Scott Peck.

I know I'm not an atheist (once was), but just posting information that will help.

Watch Liar Liar (Jim Carrey). You shouldn't tell your wife she is outright fat, but lie and tell her differently - these cases of lying are ok, I guess. Overall, lying is wrong and evil people lie.

 

An old, old saying: "A liar needs a good memory".

 

Lying is an expression of weakness. It puts the ball in the other person's court, so to type.

Basically, we lie to control others. We attempt to control others because we cannot control ourselves, because we are weak.

The twisted version of honesty (lie when I want you to, society says) that we've come to accept is rather fucked and decidedly not a virtue.

Complete honesty - "No honey, that dress does not make you look fat. It is all the Haagen Daaz you shove into your maw that makes you look fat." - is a virtue. Complete honesty is basically a way of saying "fuck you" to the world.

Complete honesty is one of the highest expressions of power because it renounces all desire to control others.

Er, yeah, I've decided to go after that pure honesty. Normally, I lie through my teeth - for no reason at all and with utterly no guilt.

And I read too much Nietzsche.

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He he, lying might be a sign of weakness. But it is also a sign of disrespect, since you are either trying to gain an advantage by it (like Xev said) or you might just do it outta habit, which is even worse.

Xev, lie through your teeth??? No way!

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Xev,
I like your Humerous quote. Hey, I'll trade you a Darwin for it:

"...ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." Introduction; The Descent Of Man

What do you say, deal?

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Michael

 

You're right Zero, I don't. < irony > I never lie. < / irony >

Orthogonal:
Deal. Thanks.

 

"All cruel people describe themselves as paragons of frankness." Tennessee Williams

Michael

 

Thanx guys, good discussion. My personal opinion? I'd have to agree with Xev, telling the truth is a sign of power and llies are the way we control others to some extent. Not that its morally or ethicaly wrong necassarily, but still this ytheory shows the truth is the better route. I also argee with ortho though, many people lie on a daily basis - not hudge lies but millions of little ones.

Thanx for all the posts. ~Cactus

 

this statement is a lie

 

Every statement Nuetrino Makes is a lie.

this statement is a lie

Even that. Ever seen the original series Star Trek episode I Mudd?

 

As opposed to the people who lie just for the sheer pleasure of spreading mistruth, I suppose. Anymore, I can almost see it as a virtue.


Of course, I'm not going to say that I don't lie, but at least I know that I shouldn't. I do lie about things. I call in sick if I need a day off work. In my "youth" I told my parents what they wanted to hear rather than try to explain that i wasn't sure where I was going out to, that my friends and I were just going to wander a bit. I suppose this sort of lying is just something easier than saying "That's not really any of your business".

However, when my friends, or anyone, comes to me for my opinion, or advice, I tell them, honestly. If I don't like someone's haircut and they ask me what my opinion is, then I will tell them so. What is lying going to do? the only thing it will do is to reinforce a pattern of behavior that we don't want someone engaging in.

Unlike orthogonal, I think that there is a difference between constantly saying what's on one's mind and offering one's opinion only when asked for it. In such a model, any time one isn't speaking in a stream of consciousness style he really is lying. Is that the case?