Atheism is a bi-product of THEISM

Sorry you're correct, here is Abraham's promise--Gen. 22: 17

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Then Isaac --Gen. 26: 4

And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Then Jacob (israel)--Gen. 28: 14

And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

This on refers to Ishmael, son of Abraham. Islam claims right through him.
Gen. 17: 20
And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

That's the one referenced to Ishmael, whom muslims declare their "Birthright" come from, instead of Isaac. Which is pretty much where the drama between palestine and Israel popped off. Since both jew, and muslim claim passage to the Abrahamic covenant--just through different lineage. Islam claims Isaac. Jews/Christians claim Jacob.

There's some more reference... open to your interpretation. So pretty much it was said a few times in the bible dude. That abraham's seed would have a huge impact on the earth.

That's really simple and plain to my understanding. You can see how I believe this, correct?

As for all the conflict in the middle east, and conflict on the earth in general, it's very unlikely that it will cease. I don't believe that Islam is the purest form of truth, neither do I regard todays Jewish and Christian faiths, but the fact that they believe in One God--and that half the world does, is a good start.

 

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Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is how follower's of Jesus, regard themselves spiritually born into the promise made to Abraham. The nations of the earth are blessed with the knowledge of God, through abraham's seed.

 

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It seems to me that everyone's seed multiplies, that what seeds do. The only difference is the Jews gave it cosmic significance, like everything else that happened to them. I don't blame them, they came from slavery into a fertile area and prospered, their myths with them.

The Chinese are the most populous people on Earth, maybe their religions are also blessed? What about rats and cockroaches, they must be blessed too?

Isn't it interesting that you don't feel that blessing is in doubt when they go through hardship, like the diaspora of the Jews, or the Dark Ages and the Black Plague, or the holocaust? Only the good news counts, right?

I feel that the abrahamic religions evolved as a meme to be particularly virulent in infecting people. The religions with aggressive missionary zeal built in were bound to suceed in popularity those that were less so. This is why there are more Christians than Taoists.

 

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So, was everyone born a theist, atheist or agnostic?

 

None of them, since you need to know what God is in order to be one of them.

 

Nobody knows what God is. Nobody knows if there even is one despite what they might tell you.

 

Nisus,

An atheist doesn’t “deny the existence of God”, that is a erroneous theist perspective of an atheist. To an atheist it is not possible to deny the existence of something that doesn’t exist.

Well no. Their energies are directed at those who think such fantasies do exist.

Quite right but then to assert that fantasies are real is even less profitable and downright idiotic.

Absolutely, but the real issue is with those who do yet realize that these things do not exist.

Well no. Something that doesn’t exist is not the issue, again the issue is with those that see things differently.

Not sure that atheists aren’t dealing with this. But then atheism is entirely dependent on theism – when theism dies then atheism will have no cause.

But the idea is fine, makes for good mythologies, folklore and fantasies. The problem comes when some people think such things might actually be real.

We do? Not seen anyone do that. Why would anyone defame a name?

Ahh you may not have heard yet – there is no such thing as a creator, so no one in their right mind, and certainly not atheists, will be blaspheming something that doesn’t exist.

Nah – atheists have no problem seeing the fantasy.

But wait – it is theists that struggle and fight in the name of their gods – atheist struggle and fight against the theists.

There ya go again getting all confused an all. The fight isn’t against nothing but against those who confuse nothing for something.

Ahh another wonderful misunderstanding. Disbelief in a proposition is not the same thing as a belief.

LOL – dream on. Primarily a nice collection of largely theistic misconceptions. But thanks for trying.

 

c7,

Well no. One merely needs to find the concept believable or unbelievable. That you may not entirely understand what it is doesn't prevent you taking a position.

 

I think you have mistaken passion for belief.

 

None of them, since you need to know what God is in order to be one of them.

A logical answer. So, when do we first begin to hear or read about god?

It is usually in the primary or elementary school years, around the ages of 4-8 - when stories of the tooth fairy and santa claus are also believable?

Is it in these years one also takes a position as theist, atheist or agnostic?

 

Amen. Atheism is entirely dependant on theism, this is the point I was initially trying to make. You guys ridicule our beliefs--and I know many believers ridicule your as well, so both sides are to blame but,--

Theism isn't about to die. Ever. So this cause that you say we believe in vain, actually has went from small nomadic people in the plains of Canaan, to a populous of believers exceeding 3.4 billion souls/people; this cause will fill the earth eventually, not just half of it...

What was initially Christ, 12 apostles and a handful of believers is now 2.1 billion believers in Jesus, collectively.

Athiests say we believe in vain, but it seems more likely that athiests are losing and will lose the battle of these ideals. And when in reality all athiesm is swept asunder from the rise of theism, you will see as you see now from the already overwhelming evidence that theism is growing; you will see that athiesm ultimately, will flounder.

Most athiests I've met are just vehement about the fact that religion was indoctrinated into their lives from a young age, so they utterly oppose and detest it, or they are angry because there are a vast majority of theists, who don't question, but believe blindy... and consistantly force their beliefs on others. Humans are vicious animals sometimes, get used to it, if it's not their own ideas about God they throw at you it will be something else...

Welcome to the world of ideas, where not only religion, but government, laws, rules, regulations, fashion, consumerism, rascism, prejudice, lies, opinions, FoxNEWS, crappy music, etc, are all forced upon us and bombard our lives. It's up to us to overcome these things, battle all these things and eventually stand taller and become better people. To integrate into ourselves the best knowledge and experience we can find in this tsunami of ideas...

 

Theism isn't about to die. Ever.

Are you sure about that? Can you predict the future? Or is that just affirmation?

Humans are vicious animals sometimes, get used to it

Kinda pushes one away from the idea that we are gods children, sort of an evolution thingy?

That is unless you care to admit your god is also a vicious animal - are we not made in his image?

 

Haha, I know! I feel exactly the same way. I actually started a thread about this and took quite a bit of flak.

For this reason I consider myself the biggest atheist on these boards. I don't even bother to wonder about the (non)existance of God. God matters so little, it's hardly worth my time to think about him, let alone argue with morons about His (non)existance.

 

Theism didn't start in the middle east with Abraham, if that's what you're getting at. This did mark a significant rise in monotheism, but theism itself is much older and widespread. It is inherent in the human psyche to anthropomorphize everything, but not every culture took it so seriously.

I take issue with the notion that atheism is a rebellion against theism, and that it has to do with being taught theism when young. I was never taught theism or any other religion, and when I first heard of it, I was as skeptical of it as the idea of Santa Clause or the Easter bunny.

These are just names we give to kinds of belief or lack of it. Atheism is sometimes a rebellion, sometimes not, as is the case with Buddhists. The existence of Taoism and Buddhism and other non-theist philosophies are proof of this. They happen to fit your definition of atheist, that's all. Theists created atheism as an enemy, because having enemies solidifies loyalty to the cause.

 

Large groups of people want to hold beliefs that aren't reinforced by reality, so they form congregations with others to reinforce their delusions.

Lack of belief in god should be a given.

Because of theists it isn't.

Saying I'm an atheist is like saying I'm not like those assholes.

 

Always good to have some assholes around... gotta make sure you're not one of em eh? :bugeye: Heh. Kind of like stupid people right? If you didn't have them how would you distinguish yourself? What would be your point of reference? How would you gauge your "intellect"?

Great thing is there are things that exist, independent to wether we acknowledge them or not. Come and spend 80 years on earth, live out your days till your head is covered in grey hairs and you still have yet to catch even the smallest glimpse of the universe, and what's really going on.

The most prize knowledge is the knowledge of the things that never change. Not of assholes, atheists or idiots. The knowledge of what chain of command that sustains your life, and what is holding you in order and organization. All the processes that continue from a huge star/sun we orbit then the precise amount of energy, light, and the correct composition of different arrays of matter-- and some gravity --and complex proteins weaving cells and structure, and small impulses of electricity playing elaborate symphonies through our nervous system.......leading up to a small breath of consciousness.

Just for a short period, long enough to plant ones feet upon the soil of the earth and look up to see the ocean of stars that expand and unfold into ageless eternities.

 

Nisus,

That’s very wishful thinking but not realistic. As we continue to evolve and as we gain more knowledge via science and inevitably become smarter and more intelligent, then even though the concepts of gods will remain, the fantasy belief that they are real will certainly cease. The god concepts have no credibility or viability; they are leftovers from vastly more ignorant times and remain in active use to this day because of continuing widespread ignorance, poor education, and gullibility.

I’m afraid recent statistics show the opposite trend.

And the number is continuing to grow, but ISLAM is growing at a faster rate, however, the total population is growing even faster. The net result is that the number of people considered religious as a percentage of world population is in decline.

Only if science and knowledge go into decline, something that doesn’t look likely given the insatiable curiosity of the human mind.

You are in self denial or you have been listening to your own propaganda.

 

Nisus,

Or a delicate balance achieved through eons of evolution that has no directing command structure.

And of course if things were different then we’d either not exist or we’d also be different.

Take care not to think the shape of the cooking dish was becuase of the shape of the cake. We are what we are because of the conditions. The conditions were not devised to suit us.

 

I think, as an atheist myself, there are several good reasons to have healthy and persuasive debate on the issue.

1. In almost every place in the world, religion has defined the prevailing cultural paradigm. If you do not believe in the religion, or the god that has shaped your culture, yet are still subject to the rules and norms of it, many of which you may see as needless suppression or denial of natural human desires and urges. Isnt it incumbent upon you to express your feelings about your own predicament. Dont you think that attempting to disprove the existence of a god or gods is a better idea than attempting to force a godless paradigm onto everyone else in society as society forces it onto non-believers?

2. Christians believe in god. Someone like you in fact, it seems believes in god so totally that it is beyond questioning, so put your same questions to yourself. If you are so certain about the truth of the claims of christianity, why cant you be content with keeping it to yourself? ah, maybe for the same reasons atheists are not content to.

atheism does go hand in hand with theism, because theism is a pervasive element throughout cultures, and is most often a controlling element. to deny theism is to attempt to shift the balance of control.

 

perhaps atheists merely see what many others have seen about theism: that it does horrible things to people, creates a slave mentality and causes needless suffering? or perhaps on the flip side, they see that it has been used to justify terrible atrocities.

perhaps they hold that the truth they have found is a virtue. have you ever encountered someone who wilfully ignores basic laws of grammar, spelling, and what have you? or someone who ignores them out of ignorance? my reaction in such situations is to enlighten them. sometimes i do so in a gentle way and sometimes i bludgeon them on the head with it, but the point remains, many hold knowledge as a virtue, and would naturally oppose those who are opposed to knowledge, or not in possession of the facts.

myself, when i oppose religion it is because i hate to see what it's doing to people that i care about. yes, i am doing so because of religion. and yes, if religion stopped i would not need to continue opposing it. this does not mean that my argument is somehow invalid. if there were no (pet political issue here) there would be no need to oppose it. does this mean you shouldn't?