At Rest with our Hubble view

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by quantum_wave, May 26, 2013.

  1. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    11,131
    You should not say "my so called model", you should phrase it this way, "my incoherent, uneveidenced, illogical, half thought out idea that I call a model even though it is not remotely close to what a model actually is".

    That way at least there would be one thing correct in your posts.
     
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  3. PartyBoy Registered Member

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    71
    I thought models were pretty women who shed their clothing for money, not little girls who gripe loosely around the locker room.
     
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  5. eram Sciengineer Valued Senior Member

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    1,877
    Is that how one physicist insults another? "Your model is like a little girl who gripes loosely around the locker room!"

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  7. PartyBoy Registered Member

    Messages:
    71
    Some things are just too funny and inacurate not to say. I don't believe that was one of them

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  8. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    11,131
    Nope. Those individuals are properly refered to as strippers or exotic dancers.
     
  9. PartyBoy Registered Member

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    71
    Oh well in that case I guess I was mistaken on an obvious metaphor. Shedding clothes is much like sharing an idea. The hope is someone who understands aesthetics is watching. Then you have to bet they are good folk before you go into the back room and begin dancing with them.
     
  10. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    It isn't a mystery why someone would ask the questions I ask, and many science professionals ask them as well? But if we are going to have free thinkers in the world we have to let people like Origin and the other flamers rip us verbally for asking; are they pretending they know the answers? Too bad their posting is wasted on flames and disparagement. Wouldn't it be good for a discussion forum if the self proclaimed experts actually knew the answers, and proved it by saying what they find to be inconsistent in mine. And wouldn't it be refreshing if they admitted that their consensus theories are themselves inconsistent, just to acknowledge that laymen are not outcasts for asking.

    So I would assume it is not any internal inconsistency or violation of observational evidence in my above list that drives the detractors who flame free thinking and alternative ideas. Maybe it is personal, or a vendetta for my past sins of having questions about the inconsistency of their favored models. Certainly it isn't caused by my disparagement of their free thinking. I've never seen any of the avid flamers show any of that.

    Mine are clearly just common questions that people ask. I have had dozens of people try to answer them and some who say we just can't know. A few have ideas but no mechanics to go with them. Generally though, I have had lots of discussions with people about various ideas over the years here at SciForums, and if you ask about the preconditions to the big bang, the big crunch idea is not absurd. The flamers of the forum know so much more than I do about their rigorous understanding of models that are inconsistent.

    I'll just carry on in my thread, that I have asked again to have moved to Alt Theories, and let them flame me and show us who they are. It isn't always a science issue that gets clarified on these threads, and so we judge for ourselves as far as character and self respect go as well.

    The big crunch idea that I consider, does immediately lead to the problem of infinite regression. My answer, that there was no beginning, may make you wonder what is wrong with a model that has a beginning of time and space; why not be satisfied as long as the theory has an explanation for how a big bang occurs. Oh wait, there is no explanation in mainstream theory. But think about it; like Farsight and I discussed, any beginning suffers the "slings and arrows" of infinite regression. Only the answer that, "there was no beginning to the universe", escapes that problem.

    Sometimes you hear about Eternal Inflation as the new cosmology, and though it doesn't acknowledge a beginning, it is not "past eternal", meaning that it doesn't address the question. A paper, "Eternal inflation may not be eternal", does a good job of presenting the case for and against Eternal Inflation. Its conclusion was that any cosmology based on a beginning of space and time cannot be eternal. To be eternal it must be past eternal as well. "Past incomplete inflation cannot be future eternal".

    Link to the abstract page on arXiv:
    http://arxiv.org/abs/1106.3542

    Link to paper:
    http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1106/1106.3542v1.pdf

    (26998 tot. views)
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  11. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    So stop abusing science.
     
  12. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks Farsight. Seeing you post here, I am reminded of an incomplete discussion between us, and before I go on and list some more hypotheses that set the scope of my so called model, let me finish the discussion from my perspective on the topic of infinite regression vs. turtles all the way down. There is a difference, and there is a line item in this post that helps me distinguish between the infinity of the time continuum in a universe with "no beginning", and the infinite size scale of "turtles all the way down".
    That tiny wave energy content of the high density spot at the convergence of two parent quanta is where the "turtles all the way down" fallacy might creep into my so called model. The illusion is that within the tiny unobservable "world" inside a particle, there is somehow room for an entire universe, i.e. the turtle below.

    We have evidence of the existence of our level of order, and the size scale goes from the tiniest meaningful amount of energy, the quantum, and the largest meaningful amount of energy of big crunches and big bangs. Though the arena landscape in my so called model is eternal and potentially infinite, the size scale is limited by the foundational level quantum of energy and the arena level quantum of energy.

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    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  13. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    Only narcissists paint themselves embellished by the light of glory.

    Free thinkers do not live chained to their illiteracy. This ripping is the sound of the prisoner tying pieces of bedsheet into rope, intending to escape his the confinement of ignorance.

    Origin is one of the scholars seen passing by the prison who incites the prisoner into fits of envy.

    Asked the prisoner, lying in the chains of illiteracy, of the scholars seen through the window of the prison cell. *rip*

    Indeed, had the prisoner attempted to liberate himself through rehabilitation programs in literacy, the jury verdict would not be weighing so heavily on his troubled mind. *r-rip*.

    Cried the admitted illiterate, watching the scholars pass by, from the window of his prison cell. *r-r-rip*

    Proof is for geometers, the rest is pearls to swine; but neither teaching reaches through the prison walls. *r-r-r-rip*

    The prisoner is condemned not by consensus of the jurists' opinion but on their consensus that the admission of guilt is sufficient to return a verdict of same. *r-r-r-r-rip*

    All laymen are not convicted on their illiteracy, just the hardened offenders. The rest attend rehabilitation classes and remain free on probation. *r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    The chains of illiteracy deprive the captive of freedom of movement through the pillars of consistency and informed conclusions. *r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    The only material evidence was the prisoner's admission of guilt. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Free thought is the commutation of sentence which can only be granted in the light of new evidence that rehabilitation through literacy has been earned. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    The court of personal integrity limits all averments on the character of the defendant as to the material facts admitting deliberate intent to remain ignorant, already placed into the record. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Captive ignorance has no grounds for adjudging free knowledge. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    In the mirror, the prisoner finds his bones of contention. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Rationalizing illiteracy is no justification for pitting ignorance against knowledge. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    From within his cave, the prisoner creates his own reality. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Ignorance of a subject invalidates judgment of same. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    The prisoner's speculations on freedom are inseparable from the distortions of confinement. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Ignorance of a subject invalidates judgment of same. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Claiming thread ownership does not absolve the offense of posting absurdities. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Ignorance of a subject invalidates judgment of same. Character and self-respect are measure by the will to pit knowledge against ignorance, beginning with oneself. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    A conclusion for which there is no factual predicate. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Ignorance of the subject invalidates judgment of same. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Stating that a theory has been posed is false and incorrect. Any explanation for cause of the big bang which does exclude the creation of time is absurd. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    False and incorrect. There is no initial causality in the big bang theory. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    The slings and arrows of failing out of math and science are paid in the outrageous misfortune of denying science. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Any escape into the freedom of discerning causality from non-causality is restrained by the chains of illiteracy. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Ignorance of the subject invalidates judgment of same. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*

    Links to papers are no substitute for illiteracy. Parole denied. *r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-rip*
     
  14. Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    You claim to have an open mind and to be a "free-thinker". But are you? The papers you cited are meant to support your idea. And sure, people with ideas seek to justify them. But that is not what having an open mind means. And while free thinker has many connotations, I don't think its main idea describes you. You are locked into a mindset. You seek support for your idea and avoid criticism (put people on ignore if you don't like what they say). By only looking for support for your ideas, you always are moving toward it, never away. So by always approaching you can be sure that you will either arrive at your goal, or just get stalled out.

    If you have ever watched a TV detective show, you will notice that the initial suspect is seldom the culprit. The detective searches crime scenes and interviews witnesses. If instead he initially decided who did the crime and only looked for evidence that incriminated main suspect, that person would surely be the person put of trial and possibly convicted. That is what you are doing. And it shows that your so called model is all that really matters to you, and not any truth, especially a truth that might be a little difficult for you to accept due to preconceived prejudices.
     
  15. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,671
    In my threads I pick the topic, my posts are civil and on topic, and I often ignore the flames to break the flame cycle, as moderators and administrators recommend. Sometimes the disdain toward me is too great, and the flamers don't need an angry response from me to fuel their disparagement. I wonder how they live with that, but they do, and I accept their incivility as a fact of life when alternative discussions are at hand.

    The nature of forums, and especially "alternative" threads does not often result in frequent discussions once the flamers have ridiculed anyone bold enough to participate on topic, and though I welcome it, I don't need on topic participation to say what my ideas are. I'm at the point in this thread where I am updating the so called model presented in previous threads to incorporate the newer ideas discussed earlier in this thread. I'll then have it written down, in a context that welcomes discussion, and in a place where I can refer back, the next time I want to do some updates.

    Why do I include so much about the quantum level? The fact is that the questions that I am asking cannot be answered unless there is a foundational quantum level, below the observable and/or theorized fundamental level of the standard particle model. My so called model includes hypotheses about the quantum nature of particles and gravity, and I describe the role of quantum action in the formation and collapse of a big crunch, in quantum gravity, and in particles composed of energy in quantum increments.

    And oh yes, it is a fun hobby, and I have no idea why it drives the peanut gallery crazy, lol.

    """""""""""""""

    Cheezle, you have no clue. I'm not surfing for links to impress you, I have used the Dr Laura Mersini-Houghton paper before because it is pertinent to my interest in cosmology. Check post #4 in the thread below; you could spend hours and hours with just the footnote sources as I did back then.

    Lorentz invariance and the multiverse, possible or not?
    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?108662-Lorentz-invariance-and-the-multiverse-possible-or-not
    Started by quantum_wave, 06-30-11 08:59 AM
    12345...11
    quantum_wave
    10-04-11, 09:15 AM *
    Instant notification

    (27255)
     
  16. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    No, q_w, you are posting garbage, not science. It's not sufficient to pretend to be avant-garde. You're exactly the opposite. You are doing nothing more than seeking mollycoddling cranks to give you strokes as if there is some micro movement of backward pretenders to science who think they are special. They aren't - you aren't. You are simply illiterate. By this I mean you could not pass the math or science section of a college entrance exam, and I suspect you would rate at about the 6th grade if properly tested. It's simply unacceptable that person of your low standing would continue to pretend to hold advanced or "alternative" or "free thinking" ideals that are worthy of standing against the world body of knowledge we call science.

    For this reason I say your posts are nothing but sytrofoam. If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.
     
  17. Cheezle Hab SoSlI' Quch! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    745
    Are you still not doing science? We all know you are not, but often it seems like you think you are doing science. If so you would be the only one to think so.

    Good because I was not impressed. I don't think anyone here is impressed with you or your theory.

    I am sure that Dr Laura Mersini-Houghton would just be pleased as punch to know that you and her see eye to eye on your so called model. Maybe you and her can get together over coffee and discuss your hypothesis on wowions and the multiverse. Somehow I think she would not appreciate your linking her work into your so called model.
     
  18. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    Not at all. Your posts are always clear and to the point. You're always responding like a teacher, winnowing your way into the cracks and holes you see in the less fortunate folks' posts, in order to help them see their errors. In return q_w just ignores your help, argues, ridicules you, and continues glorifying ignorance.

    Besides, "heap of steaming bovine poo" is not only the predictable last recourse when you've already been ignored 50 times - it just happens to characterize the mess q_w has left in this thread. His loss, the sad sack. You've already given him a generous amount of information to turn himself around and start a new tack. He's just not hearing it. In fact, the bovine personality would be even more amenable. Even the stubborn old mule!
     
  19. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,671
    Note the challenge in the last paragraph. I followed that challenge with a list of ideas I include in my personal answer to the question of what caused the big bang ...

    Instead of anyone manning up and taking the challenge, I got nothing on topic. Someone who intensely wants to, should be able to pick it apart; show how it violates scientific observations and data. I would consider it a major contribution on your part to the objective I stated years ago of having a personal view of the cosmology of the universe that suits me, not you.

    I readily admit when I am wrong and have done so often in past years. Every time though, I have corrected my mistakes and have rethought everything, and updated the so called model to be better than it was before, in my personal view of course. I believe it is getting harder and harder for anyone to find inconsistencies and outright errors, but certainly they are there to be picked up.

    I'll be updating things and restating past posts from other threads as I do the update, so be alert and find an internal inconsistency or something inconsistet with scientific observations and data. I'll be appreciative.

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  20. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    So, your challenge is for people to disprove your 'whatever' as to what caused the big bang.

    Nice.
     
  21. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not raising i + 40 to the power of 99 (with a root of -1) here, it is not a challenge to disprove something that can't be disproven. It is a challenge to find inconsistencies, correct them, improve my so called model; you know the difference, I suspect.
     
  22. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    5,819
    No, I can't so I know the difference here.

    Too many words so far.
     
  23. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    quantum_wave

    As Beer w/straw is alluding to, it is not up to us to disprove YOUR model, it is up to YOU to support it with evidence(something you fail, miserably, at doing. Since the current Big Bang theory is well supported by observations, computations and experimentation it will be the one accepted as true UNTIL YOU SHOW OTHERWISE. Good luck, but I won't be holding my breath in anticipation.

    It is impossible for there to be any evidence on this side of the singularity(or near equivalent)of what conditions were on the other side of that singularity(or near equivalent). This is not my opinion, it is fact. It is impossible to everyone.

    Nothing vague about those answers, they were very specific and accurate to the best of our current knowledge. You just have a bias, looking for support where there is none(IE in reality).

    Don't believe it, know it. The CMBR is the radiation of the Big Bang stretched by expansion to about 2.7degrees k, ask any competent Cosmologist. And the evidence contained in the relic radiation has led no competent Cosmologist to think otherwise, quite the contrary.

    Scientists would love to know the cause of the BB, there's just no evidence to be had. That does not mean there were no pre-conditions, it just means there's nothing on this side of the singularity that tells you anything about that cause, and there never will be.

    Yes, there are many cranks and kooks, a product of our so-called edumacation system and Luddite religious institutions.

    No, no one is spending big bucks on this, proposing your scenario would get you laughed out of any review, you'll get no research money to look for Unicorns.

    Yes, we will continue searching the CMB data, but anomalies do not automatically mean evidence for pre-BB conditions, it's much more likely that they are caused by conditions during Inflation. And these anomalies are very, very tiny differences in something smoother than smooth.

    No, you just didn't like the answers you received, like the ones I just gave you. You know, when almost everyone says you are wrong, you ought to at least consider that they might be seeing something that you don't(if learning something is your intent). While occasionally the lone wolf turns out to be right, it isn't going to happen in this case.

    I have done so, though showing you where you have violated science and observation doesn't seem to register with you at all, the how is that it does not conform to the evidence we have and you have presented no evidence to support your unscientific pronouncements, many of which are the gobbledygook, word salad, spewings of a diarrheal butthole. Further effort to correct your misconceptions seems futile, but rebutting such non-sense is always worthwhile.

    You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. You are distorting the facts to support your opinion, that is not science and reason, that is religion and belief(despite the evidence, of which you appear to know nothing). Scientific concepts do not reside within a sciencey word salad, they reside in meticulously evidenced models which are supported by all the available evidence. That does not describe your vague and unevidenced ramblings.

    Grumpy

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