Ask any question you want about Christianity

Answers,

I have two small questions that can easily debunk Christianity.

1) Do you know or did you overlook the part in the Bible where Jesus told his worshippers not to praise him but to only praise "God"?

2) Why do you think the character of Jesus is so similar to the character of Horus, who proceeded Jesus by many years?

 

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When I first read "answer's" post, I just put my face in my hands and shook my head, no... no... no...
But then I read the questions that Adam, Xev, Elbaz, Chris, Raithere, tiasa, and Neutrino_Albatross asked - and I was very impressed.

Then I read answer's answers, and I just put my face in my hands and shook my head, no... no... no...

But I think the questions deserve better answers, so I'm going to put my 2 cents in. These are not the answers I would have given 5 years ago, and they may not be the answers I would give 5 years from now. But they are my answers, given after praying to my God for guidance. I offer them to you 7 humbly and with respect.

Adam 1) Is evolution supported by facts? Yes, but the facts are physical, and speak of physical truths, but they are truths nonetheless

Adam 2) I Creationism supported by facts? What facts? No, Creationism is not supported by physical facts and should not be treated as scientific theory. However, the story of creation in the Bible speaks to spiritual truths about the nature of man, and they are truths even if they have no one for one correspondence with physical events.

Adam 3) Is the existence of a Creator supported by facts. What facts? I'll have to dance, sorry. In the physical world, the fact is that the Creator cannot be seen directly, so the answer is no. And if you believe that the physical world is the only one, then that is the only answer you can have. But if you believe, as I do, that there is a spiritual dimension to the world, then spirit can speak to you and show you the tracks that the Creator has left in his creation. The world of spirit is intrinsically coherent in the same way that a good science fiction story is coherent, exept that in spirit, you can have subjective experiences that cannot be explained physically, but only within the framework of spirit. Can it be proven physically? Not yet. Maybe never. But why should I wait for proof to validate what I know though experience.

Adam 4) Are organic molecules common throught the universe? Yes, it certainly appears so through scientific observation.

Adam 5) Can evolution theory explain how life first appeared on the Earth? Yes, but only physically. And if I can jump ahead to what I think your getting at: Each of my answers to you is predicated on my unwavering belief that there is an unseen and eternal world of spirit that exists outside of the physical senses and the 4 observable dimensions, connected to this realm but veiled. Plato's analogy of the cave comes to mind but it is an incomplete analogy.

What the spirit world is about has everything to do with will. This is a simplistic answer with broad ramifications.

Adam 6) is it possible for something as complex as a protein or a cell to develop without the existence of a Creator. No direct answer, but again, there is a will outside of the physical world that is motivating things to work to an end. Cells, determined to reproduce, require energy and therefore the need to sense their environment to acquire that energy. They sense light and move toward the light. They sense molecules and absorb the molecules etc etc through the ages. The pressure of natural selection seems to be pushing the physical world in only one direction: Ever greater awareness of self and environment. Why? Because that 'will' that exists in 'spirit' motivating the 'flesh' to become self aware wants to exists in the flesh, bridge the gap between the purely physical and the purely spiritual. Each living thing, looking though its own eyes, is a living manifestation of that 'will'... trying to see itself, to understand what it means to be physical, to be, to exist as it is.

Adam 7) Is mutation the only factor in evolution? Mutations are just the buzz, like sunlight striking the planet creates a buzz that allows molecules to react. It is the 'will' of 'God' that provides the direction. (Or you can try to explain how love evolved within a biological/thermodynamic paradigm. I'm sure you will have as much trouble as I am having right now

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Adam 8) Are there any transitional fossils? I don't know - it's not my area of expertise. Has anyone claimed to find any yet?

Xev 1) What is the experience of "God", for you, like? The first encounter was pretty much like expanding into an infinite space. It scared the living shit out of me and I immediately snapped back. Since then, sometimes it comes to me as a profound sense of awe. Sometimes it is an unspeakably profound peace and centeredness. Lately, it has been a deep joy. For more decades then I'd like to admit, if anyone asked me who I was doing. I'd reply 'Not bad'. In the last year, since I was baptised, I have been able to answer honestly, "Great". Most times, I'm happier than I ever have been in my life. I'm still bothered sometimes by just how bad things are and how bad people treat each other. But I try not to own anyone else's behavior anymore except my own. My experience with the Holy Spirit is usually like spirit shoving it's hand up my butt and moving my mouth. I'm thinking to myself, "where is this shit coming from," and the person I'm talking to is flabergasted at what I'm saying because it's striking them to the core and I don't even know them. It's spine tingling when it happens.

Xev 2) Why do you believe? Because of subjective experience - things that I could tell you about but that cannot be proven and are easily dismissed by the logical mind. I couldn't have become a Christian though, if I had not taken classes in wilderness survival from a guy named Tom Brown. At his school, I began to learn about the reality of gut feeling, intuition, and eventually of spirit, not through the bible or because he was some kind of guru - but through the Earth and because he could create experiences that were reproducible, even if they were subjective. (Christians believe that the Earth reveals God, but don't spend enough time studying it, I think) Having once had the experiences, I had a choice. I could discount them, or try to absorb them and understand them. For me it was a matter of intellectual honesty - it would have been dishonest to dismiss something simply because my logical mind could not explain it. Have you ever asked yourself how primitive cultures figured out what plants were edible, medicinal or poisonous? And if they were medicinal, how were they prepared, how could they be used in combinations etc. If you relied solely on deductive reasoning and the scientific method you'd have a lot of dead experimenters who never left notes behind.

Elbaz 1) If God loves all of his creatures, than why does he send some to hell? (I'm getting tired so I'll give you the short answer and you can come back at me if you want.) I love my children - but if some of them rebel against me and wish not to have a relationship with me, what am I do do? Force myself on them? It's am overused metephor, but it works.

Elbaz 2) What religion was Jesus? A Jew. What's your point?

Elbaz 3) How could Jesus be the son of God if he had brothers and sister? No answer that I understand. It's a mystery to me. In John's Gospel, John sounds like he's trying to use mere words to describe something that can't be described in mere words. "John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." This language resonates with me because I have experienced a feeling of oneness with all things. So if the spirit of God can come inside you and you can surrender and be taken in to the spirit of God, then no wonder everyone is having trouble telling the difference between Jesus and God!

How could Jesus be the Messiah if he didn't fulfill his prophecies as predicted in the Bible? And please don't give me the go around on this one, it's a retoric question. Umm. OK.

Cris 1) Can you prove that a god exists? Prove in the sense of formal logic? no. I might be able to lead you to an experiences that might make you suspend your skepticism long enough to take another look, but probably not. Not me, anyway.

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Chris 2) Can you prove that Jesus actually existed? No.

Raithere - If God is universally infinite, how can any other aspect of him be defined? Good question. The only answer I can come up with is of the 'blind men around the elephant" type. We cannot hold the concept of infinite in our 4 dimensional meat brains. All we can do is assign variables to different aspects of it and examine those aspects. Are the reductions of the thing the thing itself? No. Can they tell us something about the thing? Yes, in a limited way. (Do you think thats a good answer, or just bullshit?

Tiassa - Will the Devil be redeemed?All I can give you is the Christian paradigm on this one. I never really thought about the question before. The Devil wants to be worshipped as God, but he is not God. He is ego, he is belief in self-sufficiency, he is manipulation, he is lies. He is that which hates the idea that he must worship something other than himself. It doesn't sound like he would choose redemption. I'd be interested hearing you talk about the implications.

Neutrino_Albatross - is it possible for freewil to exist with an omniscient god? Yes. Since God exists beyond the limitation of time he's already seen the movie of my life, even though I am still in the act of producing it and don't know the ending myself.

 

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Let me end my part in this thread by just saying that all you Atheists would make great Christians. You spend so much time trying to get answers, trying to find the truth. Yet your only problem is that you are on the wrong side. You come at Christianity with the desire to disprove it, when you could come at Christianity with the desire to believe in it. Until you approach Christianity differently, you will never see the truth that it holds.

To put this in practical terms: you read books that disprove Christianity, while I read books that prove it. Of course this will change our approach. Many of the Biblical questions that people have sent can be answered in any Bible commentary. You all seem to like taking things out of context. Maybe you should try reading the whole thing. Then reading a commentary, or Bible study, to find your answers, instead of looking in your Atheist books to just find more questions.

It's sad that I chose to look for answers in God's word, while you chose to look for the same answers in the words of scientists.

But what has really confused me with Atheists is why they think Christianity is bad? Christianity preaches peace, love, joy, equality, and security, yet you all treat it as if it holds back all those good things. Is it because Christians are against cloning, or weird scientific experiments? Is it because they are simply different? Is it because they don't believe what you believe?

What is your problem with Christianity?

It's obvious many of you hate it, but why? Lets take your point of view and say that it is false. Now doesn't Christianity still stop wars, it stopped a revolution when John Wesley lead an English revival, that’s a historical fact! Doesn't it bring families together? Doesn't it stop adultery, crime, and racial hatred? Doesn't it sit in the back of people’s minds when they are down in the dumps? Doesn't it help the people on the earth no one else wants to help? There are many Christian charities, and they are only there because of God and Christ! Doesn't Christianity make our streets safer? Doesn't it at least give non-Christians something to judge their own goodness by?

What would the world do without Christianity? All Atheism does is promote debate, hatred, and fights. You want it to promote peace, love, joy, and a better world. But look at the results! It has brought division, slander, and animosity. Atheism is just a religion for scientists. Nothing more, nothing less. But it is a religion that defies Christianity, yet still tries to steal its values.

Even Atheists would be nowhere today without the message which Christ brought into the world. You would have needed to make up your own system of unspoken laws. Which scientist would you have trusted as God? Does any mortal man have the abilities to know what is right, and what is wrong, without God and His value system to judge right and wrong by?

If Atheists ruled the world, there would be utter chaos. Lets put all religion and science aside. And lets look at the facts: Whether you like it or not, your own values are based on those of God Himself. Whether you like it or not, you need God, or you would have no values. Society needs Him, or there would be no order. And in the same way, we all need His son, or we would have no salvation!

Is it really that hard to have faith in something that you already practice? You say Christianity is a lie, but even if that was so, it is still worth believing in. I know through my own experiences with God, that He does exist. I have had too many answered prayers to believe that it is all just coincidence.

Someone said to take a long hard look at myself, I tell you to take a brief look at yourselves. Maybe you'll see the lie you have made yourselves believe is truth!

 

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Oh man, I hope you have your asbestos underwear on.

 

When do you think the judgement day will be? In your life time? Your son's? Your grandson's? Another 6000 years? Or you don't want to think about it?

 

Hmm, You didn't answer my simple questions Answer.
I'm not a theist but after going to a Catholic school (years ago) I have spent years looking into other religions, and at the end of the day I don't think 'Religion' matters that much.
Spirituality is far more important don't you think?
I think the reason why people are against Christianity, are not the teachings themselves, but charismatic types.
People don't like to be told how or 'what' to believe - it's rude for a start to try and convert someone when you don't know or care for them.
Answer, You mentioned I think, that the bible is full of joy, love etc. I have to disagree there. I find it reads like a horror book, it's frightening, sexist, chauvanist and revelations makes me freak with all the graphic details - hell, fire and brimstone.

I love to read uplifting books - there is a wonderful book by Dr Wayne Dyer - very simple but beautifully written with poetry from the masters, and that is MY bible.
Has anyone read this book?

 

Yeah, I'm still wating for an "answer" to my questions. They are tough ones aren't they

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No.

 

You're really exploring semantics here rather than the concepts. Just because the word or our conception of it is limited does not mean that which is being referenced is limited. Still, I have a problem with God being expressly defined. Quite simply, it seems terribly assumptive to draw conclusions regarding something so vast.

Many of us were at some point.

But honestly, is it appropriate to take sides when attempting to discern the truth? Such an approach almost always leads to an inappropriate bias.

Many of us are rather well read on both sides of the argument.

I have, many times. In fact, I find that I am generally better versed in it than most Christians I meet.

The problem that many of us have with "Bible commentary" is that the "truth" is entirely open to interpretation at which point the whole concept of determining an absolute truth becomes impossible.

We feel the same way about you.

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At least we have each other's best interests at heart... even if we disagree as to what would serve them best.

The main problem that I have with Christianity is that it is so open to interpretation. Primarily, I feel that this is because its ethics are unexamined and unexplained. While I agree with many of the moral values within the Christian paradigm I feel that it is important for us to understand the reasoning that supports our ethical values rather than relying solely upon authority. Authority is far too open to abuse and, quite frankly, is logically invalid.

Atheists do not judge their own "goodness" through Christianity... this is really a rather ignorant assumption. Where do you get the idea that all ethical values are provided though Christianity? Ethics existed long before Jesus did.

One might ask where we might be if Christianity had not suppressed science and independent thought for millennia. I'm not against Christianity, per se, but when faith in authority replaces thought problems occur.

You're on seriously shaky ground here. Historically, Christianity has done anything but promote love and understanding between people.

Yea, right. None of this existed before atheists.

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You're getting farther and farther from the truth.

You need to research atheism and secular humanism a bit before you continue. You are terribly misinformed.

Of course, first you would have to prove that these things have indeed come from God. But man certainly has the ability to develop ethics through reason.

You'll need more than your assertion to prove this.

Start here:
1. Prove God.
2. Prove that the Bible is the uncorrupted word of God.
3. Prove that man's interpretation of the Bible is infallibly correct.

One should never believe in lies... only truth. Ask yourself; if the Bible was proven to be fiction would you still value the notions of love, honor, and kindness? If so, why, what is it that gives them value? If there are inherently valuable then what additional benefit do we derive from God's authorization of them?

Back at you.

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~Raithere

 

Turduckin:

Excellent Post! The one thing I would like to add is to Raithere's question.

Defining God is one of the largest follies that Chrisitans like Answers get caught up in. Once we can come up with a proper definition for even the simplest things then maybe God will be ready for us to stand in front of her and tell her exactly what she is.

The really unfortunate thing for both the Bible thumping Christian and those who would argue with him is that there is no proof and there are no absolute facts. We have to navigate through life with faith.

mshark

 

hmmm

"Answers," I would like you, for a moment, to get rid of your multitude of presuppositions that have obviously been bored into your skull somewhere along the line (Drug rehab? Early brainwashing?), and consider the following argument.

Average person: Prove that god exists.
Conservative philosopher: Oh...we can't do that...
AP: Oh, so god doesn't exist.
CP:....WAIT, presupposition! Your previous notions of "proof" can't be applied in this debate because the subject matter is supernatural!
AP: So you eliminate the empirical evidence so I can't even ask the question anymore?
CP: ZING!
AP: So I'm sure now you feel secure, and others that feel the same way you do feel secure because basically you've tried as hard as you can to try to eliminate all scientific analysis from this debate.
CP: ZING!
AP: Don't you realize that your entire arguement still doesn't hold any water? Let's be hypothetical and say you've removed empirical evidence from the equation, you still don't have any other form of justification to say that he does exist.
CP: We don't have to prove anything, we just have to try and refute your assertions!
AP: Oh...so you feel that simply by poorly refuting our ideas, that you are actually right?
CP: ZING!

Notice that it is impossible to prove the existance of any kind of god. So I'm going to turn the tables, so you can more easily see where your presuppositions lie.

I propose the existance of an omnipotent, omnipowerful Monkey. Your belief in 'god' is laughable, and offensive to my religion. The Monkey is true, not god! Moreover, there was no Jesus - there was only MonkeyMan, the son of Monkey and the son of Man, who ate bananas for your sins.

Can you disprove The Monkey, or MonkeyMan? I'd LOVE to see your answer - presuppositions aside, of course.

Let it be known that I take no offense to your arguments as I've heard them all before. Dumping volumes of information about a topic when you know no one will read it shows you are becoming frustrated that you can't prove your point and are trying to confuse us until we agree with you. Guess what? Doesn't always work, get a new approach.

It deeply saddens me that your formerly freethinking mind seems to have been locked into a theistic worldview. Give me a chance and maybe I can help you free it. There are more flaws in your worldview than you would care to admit, but admitting they are there is the first step.

 

Actually, the sextant works better.

 

ConsequentAtheist:

Unfortunatly a sextant only tells you where you are. It doesn't tell you where you are going or why you would want to go there.

 

To be honest: it's a fairly clever reply. Good job.

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Considerations for Answers

Given the amount of balbutive cut & pasted into the answers section of this topic, I suppose I ought to be thankful at a short dose of originally-composed balbutive.

Primarily, I'm targeting evangelism; quite frankly, I could care less what any one person believes as long as it brings them some illusion of happiness and prevents them from harming others. But among the evangelized message of Christians is the idea that Jesus' forgiveness in infinite. Or, in the politically-brilliant turn of phrase, God's forgiveness is ongoing and limitless, and available to all who truly accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior (Christian Reunion.org, "God's Infinite Mercy").

Within its context, it makes sense, but the phrase--quite common in variation around the Christian evangelical body--is deceptive. God's forgiveness is not limitless, as the Acceptance Clause indicates. Thus, it lends an air of dishonesty to simple evangelism. Forgiveness is forgiveness, and is not conditional. If, for instance, I waited for everyone who sins against me to repent before I undertook forgiveness, I would have gone on a shooting spree by now. Furthermore, the Bible itself draws limits to God's forgiveness, as W.B. McCartney notes: The Bible would not tell us that there is an unpardonable sin without telling us what that sin is. Matthew 12:32, Mark 3:28,29 and Luke 12:10 definitely tell us (and these are the words of the Son of God) that blasphemy against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God will not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come. (reference)

One can delineate all they want in modern society: Muslim extremists, homosexuals, single mothers, ad nauseam. These people's souls are, apparently endangered by the state they are in. And yet the evangelical litany of forgiveness goes on.

McCartney explains: Man being created a "free moral agent" is wholly responsible for what he believes and what he refuses to believe; therefore, the sacrifice of Christ does not provide pardon for "unbelief", and unbelief becomes the unpardonable sin.

Left to the common perspective of reward and punishment, the issue of God's Will becomes as cloudy as the issue of His Forgiveness. Yet even a practical assertion that one cannot save one who does not wish to be saved falls short. A condition comes about, then, by which it is suggested that what man perceives determines actual reality, when in fact, if God is what is asserted, such a condition is nonsense.

And thus, with sectarian disagreements, Catholic pedophilia, and a host of condemnations of this or that brand of people, the whole thing becomes a convoluted heap of contextual deceptions--I've known evangelical Christians, for instance, to assert a Lucan passage about crushing the enemy to justify their belligerence toward other people while simultaneously mocking very specific calls to compassion and forgiveness in Matthew 5 and 25. Admittedly, this becomes a question of whether one has truly accepted Christ, or merely claimed such acceptance, but that perspective paints the Christian mission as a failure when we compare the number of claimed Christians to the number of true Christians.

So we can cut through all of the sins and get to the actual heart of the issue: Will the Devil be redeemed? For the Devil, chief among all sinners, is condemned to eternal fires (Matthew 25.41).

It seems then, that the same limit is applied to God's "infinite" forgiveness and mercy, that the Devil must repent in order to deserve forgiveness. We might call it "conditional infinity", or term the forgiveness as "conditionally infinite".

And the condition is acceptance of the Word of God as expressed through a politically-conventional Bible; could not Irenaeus have come up with a better reason for limiting the Bible to four gospels than he did?

So the problem becomes the fact that unless the Devil is redeemed at the very end, the evangelizations, at least, of infinite mercy and forgiveness, are deceptive and meant to con people into faith with petty appeals to greed. (Should "salvation" be the only reason for accepting Jesus? Does one who converts out of fear of condemnation truly accept Christ?)

So people are left with a deceptive evangelization, a politically-assembled "revelation" of God unto mankind, and a body faithful that doesn't actually know what it is their consciences are subscribing to.

It becomes vital, on the one hand, that the Devil be redeemed, else God's mercy is not infinite, especially in light of God's alleged omniscience and omnipotence. For the Devil was created by God, who is, as the Supreme Authority of the Universe, aware prior to Satan's creation what this combination of angelic attributes would bring, and chose to go forward anyway. Add to that an ongoing debate about whether or not angels can learn, and Satan quickly becomes the victim of an empty and pointless scheme by God, who knew of man's impending fall before it happened, and chose this route as well. But if God is not responsible for the condition of His Creations, and the Devil will not be redeemed, then Christianity is in a sorry state because of the number of people who assert infinite mercy and forgiveness.

However, if the Devil is, in the end, redeemed, all is still not well. Does it not seem pointless, then, to invent evil, subject Creation to evil, and then demand Creation begs forgiveness for its immersion in evil which, as we see, is by God's Will?

From that standpoint, evangelism is still problematic.

A good deal of it lies in how the faithful view their God, but often the dichotomy between Biblical reality and perceived faith is massive to the point of defying reconciliation.

And I think the issue strikes after the heart of the failure of Christianity to function harmoniously with the rest of human society. The supremacist bent inherent to the religion has been taming itself in the public expressions as people become more educated--a hopeful sign--but also reinvests itself with great vigor in the undereducated. However, the United States--my home--is currently embroiled in a holy war led by a President who claims Christianity (I'm reading an interesting article on that subject as we go along, but it's not quite relevant without doubling the length of this post.)

It seems to me that if the question of the Devil's redemption can be resolved, the myriad mistaken faiths alleged to be Christian will become more apparent to everyone. It will be harder for aggressive and condemning people alleging Christian faith to continue treating the world in such a manner, which will have the effect of alleviating the growing tension between Christianity and the rest of the world, and thus offer a more open road to God and Christ, resulting in a greater number of genuine converts.

But I patently reject that (A) it's up to God, and (B) the probability is low because the Devil will not repent. If it's left to the Devil's repentence, it is not up to God. Except that God, without whom nothing in this Universe happens, created the Devil specifically for this role. Furthermore, forgiveness is not nearly infinite if it comes with such a condition.

And that's the importance, as I see it, of the Devil's redemption. There are versions of Christian faith which can avoid such difficulties, but I've found such ideas are not popular among the faithful. I always wonder what their excuse will be come Judgment Day; after all, God won't be conned by mere declarations of faith, for the Lord knows what is written in each man's heart; after all, the Lord hath written it.

"The best thing in Heaven is supposed to be the sun; it shines on green mountains, and melts the Devil's gun." (Rheostatics, "Dope Fiends and Boozehounds")

thanx,
Tiassa

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Questions/answers

As long as you're answering questions, go ahead and answer these:

1. Where is the justice in punishing us for Adam's sin? The Bible itself says that children will not be punished for the parents' sins (Deuteronomy 24:16). Furthermore, if God really created Adam not knowing either good or evil (Genesis 3:22), how could such a harsh and enduring punishment as death for Adam and all his descendants possibly be just? Our secular courts are more just than God when they show mercy on people who cannot distinguish between right and wrong, such as children and the mentally handicapped. And why isn't this doctrine of original sin found anywhere in the Bible except in Paul's writings?

2. Where is the justice in punishing Jesus for our sins? If our courts of law were to accept the punishment of someone else in the place of the criminal, we would not say that justice has been done, but that injustice has been added to injustice. Would the church have me believe that two wrongs make a right?

3. How can sacrificing Jesus on behalf of the sinner atone for another's sin? This would be like killing my child to reconcile for the misbehavior of my neighbor's child. I have the capacity simply to forgive and forget without demanding compensation for small offenses. Why can't God do this? Does he simply want blood?

4. Why pray? If it changes God's mind then he is not sovereign. If it does not change God's mind then it is superfluous.

5. How can the doctrine of the Trinity possibly be true? Any attempt to make sense of it leads to contradictions. If it is so important, why isn't it clearly taught in the Bible? Why shouldn't an objective student of the doctrine conclude that it was created by the church to hide biblical inconsistencies about the nature of Christ behind a shroud of mystery?

6. Why is God concerned about humans at all? We are less than a speck in the universe. Christianity has the hallmarks of being a religion made by humans for humans.

7. Why have all the rational arguments for the existence of God been successfully refuted? If God exists, is it unreasonable to suppose that there would be at least one irrefutable proof of his existence?

8. Why haven't the existing proofs of God's non-existence been refuted? Surely believers, who have the advantage of an indwelling Holy Spirit with an "infinite mind," cannot be stumped by "finite minds" of unbelievers working within the confining limitations of reason, can they?

9. Why is it that some teachings are conveniently tautological (i.e., circular)? For example, you must pray the will of God in order for prayer to be answered; you must believe the Bible in order to understand the Bible; and the is the Word of God, therefore it is true.

10. How exactly does "loving God and enjoying him forever" give meaning to life? Any satisfying secular activity can give meaning to life. Why does the Christian assume that a metaphysical meaning for life is necessary? Isn't it the Christian who imposes meaninglessness on this present life, declaring that meaning depends for its existence on the life to come? And if Christians did not believe they will live forever, would they continue to love and serve God? Isn't it really eternal life that the Christian loves, and not God? If purpose in this present life is really derived from loving and serving God, then what sense does it make for Christians to make meaning dependent upon a future life?

11. Where is objective, verifiable evidence that a soul or spirit exists and survives the body after death? Why does the Old Testament deny such an idea until the later writings, which show the influence of Greek ideas? The idea of "progressive revelation" does not explain this.

 

Don’t want to step on any toes here, but I would like to answer a few questions. If Answers objects I will back away from the table.

Prove that god exists:

Well this one IMO is a little self explanatory. From a scientific standpoint there CANNOT BE AN INFINITE NUMBER OF FINITE Causes. The easiest way to describe this would be the example of dominoes. You could not have an infinite number of dominoes (Chain reaction) falling steadily for ever. There would have to be something to push the first domino.

How this applies to science. Lets say the big bang is fact. Both Christian and secular scientists for the most part agree on the idea. At one point everything came from nothing (Christian) or everything came from a pinpoint of condensed matter (Secular)

According to science we have no way of knowing what happened before the big bang because that is when time started. Any laws of nature, or physics would have come into existence in that instant and we can not explain what happened in the instant nor the infinity before that. Science theorizes that matter has been contracting (gravity) and exploding (Explosion) for ever before that. But, science tells us that this could not have gone on for ever. There would have to be something to start it into beginning. The only other theory could be something along the lines of an area of space that spontaneously spews out matter. And this as science tells us is impossible. Matter can be neither created nor destroyed. Only changed. Therefore there can not be an INFINITE NUMBER OF FINITE CAUSES! There would have to be something INFINITE to start the whole process off. This is how we know with certainty that there is a god (or infinite being). This tells us nothing about what kind of god he is though, and I do not use this argument to support that.

Another way that we know that god exists is this....

If you happened upon a pocket watch in the middle of nowhere. Space, the dessert whatever. Would you suddenly assume that it came there by chance? More specifically that it evolved out of its surrounding? No of course not. And why? Because something with intelligence would have had to make it! I mean look at the complexity of the watch. it has moving parts, and everything!

How can you look at a human being (Or a single celled organism for that matter) and think anything different? Intelligent design through reverse engineering implies an intelligent designer. Look at the complexities of the human respiratory system, or the way your body is controlled by your brain, and nervous system. These things are more complex than any machine ever created by man. (Except Clonaid of course) The idea of Evolution is unsupportable by fact and is nothing more than another religion out there that is accepted by left wingers and public education. There is a prominent world scientist (So prominent that I don’t remember his name) who travels the world and debates with evolutionists out there. He has never been proven wrong by any of them. In fact he offers a $250,000.00 reward to anyone that can prove the theory of evolution at all.

Why does god send people to hell?

Well quite simply he doesn’t Because you asked a question based on the bible, I will answer based on the bible.

God does not 'Send' anyone to hell. Originally there was no concept of hell. There was no death. God gave man free will, but no concept of sin. Therefore man could live forever. When Man disobeyed God he learned the concept of Sin and could no longer live in the world for free. he had to make his own way. God could have removed any memory of the event from man but instead he gave man a free will. Something that he has upheld to this day. As you can see by turning on the TV or looking out the window. or picking up a gun and killing someone...or committing genocide...

God Knowing that man was not going to make it in the world gave him laws. Laws that though they may seem hard (Such as not covet) are made simply for mans best interest. Everything god ever said was for you. Man was not made for the Law, the law was made for man. God said take Sunday off, relax (Observe the Sabbath) Don’t steal, or kill. Duh. Don’t commit adultery. These things will make you unhappy. he said lots of things for you not to do. But man does them anyway. Quite simply because you are man and you cant help it. At least not alone, and not ALL THE TIME!!! SO god had a plan. In the beginning the word was with him. The word became flesh and lived a perfect life. Fulfilling a whole heap of prophesy from earlier books and then dying fulfilling several more. Then over 500 witnesses saw him after his death (And I can tell you the science behind this is you want) and witnessed him rise to heaven. The apostles also saw him and recorded there experience.

Now... When Jesus (The word who was with god and who was god) died on the cross he in effect took all of your sin, crossed your name out and wrote his name over it in blood. When the day of judgment comes you will not have to stand testimony for yourself. He will claim your sin as his own.

All he requires in return. Is for you to believe that he can do this. Not only with your head but with your heart. Repent, which means in the bible to change your mind about who god is and who Jesus is. And that is it. That is all there is to this perfect one way relationship. The bible says that Jesus is able to save to the utmost depths of hell. And he is able to save every single human being that ever lived.

The argument that people have is... well what about people who don’t know. Well the bible says that Jesus will not return until every nation has heard the gospel and that it is better to have no knowledge of sin, because once you know you are accountable. And now you know. So you will be accountable. Also the bible says that no one goes to hell by accident. That means that everyone will have the opportunity to hear the word, and reject it WILLINGLY before they decide to go to hell.

So god does not send you to hell. The price for sin is death. We all sin. It is a fact of life. God knew this so had a plan in place. The word became flesh and took your place.

This is the only religion where salvation is given freely with nothing required but you accepting it. No other religion has this wonderful God who loves you for you. A god who Offers you a GUARANTEED SALVATION and requires nothing from you. Not only does he offer nothing from you, he is very clear that there is nothing YOU could ever do to be saved. All you have to do is let him save you. Just another instance of gods grace and love. To us disobedient rebellious children =O)

He could very easily save you even though you don’t believe. He could take everyone to heaven regardless of belief or past deeds, but instead he gave you the choice. You can live and die with God, or you can live and die without him. You get to make the decision. So don’t look at God as a judge. Look at him as offering you a very simple choice. I love you, let me take care of you. All you have to do is say yes. That is all that is required of you for salvation.

Does that make sense? Let me know if you mind me answering some questions...

 

Re: Questions/answers

I am going to try and answer what I can... though I am not the Christian genius I would like to be.

God did not punish Adam. God gave Adam free will. He gave Adam one instruction. DO not eat from the tree of knowledge. God knew that when Adam knew what sin was his life would be hard. He gave Adam paradise. No sickness, death or want. When Adam was lonely he gave him a wife. All they had to do was be happy. They CHOSE to learn of sin. At this point god could have taken these memories away, but was forced through his own gifts of free will to let Adam live the life he had chose. The bible says that when a child asks for fish will he give him a snake? Of course not... then how much more will your heavenly father bestow good gifts upon you. If you ask for salvation. God will give it to you freely. No court on earth can offer you this type of justice. Period!

In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with god and the word was god. God did not punish Jesus. Jesus dies out of love. God knew that man could never do anything to gain salvation so the word became flesh to pay that price for you. Willingly and with no reservation. This was an act of love, stepping in to prevent you from EVER experiencing the justice of god that we so rightly deserve. Due to the knowledge you gained above, you learned of sin. The penalty for sin has and always will be DEATH!

God does simply forgive and forget. In fact god says that he will forgive you as you forgive. God says in fact to forgive something along the lines of 7 *700 times. God does forgive you. Not of only minor offenses, but of even the most heinous! All you have to do is ask for salvation. There is no need to constantly beg for it. Once you have it you are covered. See above for why death was required.

This is something I wrestle with all of the time. I mean if you pray and god changes something that is not only non scientific it doesn’t make sense. The bible does make sense of it though. Let me give you an example...

My wife (before she was my wife) could not pay an upcoming bill. She prayed and prayed. and the next day got a check in the mail. Now was this a result of prayer? God says he knows your needs, and more than that he moves to meet your needs before you even ask. SO technically god would have known you were going to ask and moved this check (Which was a refund check for some products my life had written off more than six months earlier) into play before she even knew she would need it. I literally have a life full of these types of answered prayers. The bible says to take your worries to the lord. This serves practical purposes. It gets things off of your chest and helps you put your thoughts into form. But make no mistake god is working all the time. Before you know you need it!!!

I have to go to lunch now, but will attempt to answer the rest of your questions after lunch

 

Once again I'd like to thank everyone here for their involvment in this thread. There is just way too many questions for me to answer right now, and considering I've only been learning about God for a year, I think I've done pretty well in answering what I have.

Right now I'm studying atheisim, so I'll have lots more stuff to post in the future. But next time I'll be asking the questions...so I suggest that you go out and study your atheisim books as well.

So far in my life I've been used to convert one atheist to Christ. I pray that in the years to come, that number will be in the thousands.

God willing, I hope that you see what so many others have seen. Right now you are blind and in sin, but you feel free. It's one of the biggest lies atheists have believed, that Christianity is slavery and death to freedom. The bible says that you are slaves to sin. And I'd like to know of anyone here that can honestly say they can stop sinning whenever they want to. Because you simply cannot. Therefore you are slaves to it. What kind of freedom is that? Once Christ enters your life, you are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to God. I think I'd rather be a slave/servant to light, rather then a slave/servant to darkness.

But thats just me!

I hope in the future that becomes you as well.

Until then...CyA

 

Re: Re: Questions/answers

They CHOSE to learn of sin? So you're telling me they knew, before eating from the tree, that they knew it would mean eternal punishment and horrifying sickness and death? Of course not. They chose to attain KNOWLEDGE, and since they did not know of sin yet, they did not know that the two were connected. Your assumptions are flawed, and god therefore did mislead them.

So you're still saying that all of mankind continues to be punished for the sins of the few? That remains unjust, since all of us have 'free will,' that would also mean we would be born with a morally clean slate since we have the choice to make the same mistakes again - and many of us do not.

Why would god limit himself to the acts of his creations? If he is all-powerful he could choose to forgive any time he wanted to, especially with the knowledge that humans are fallible and do not easily forgive.

That is coincidence, not the result of prayer. When you consider how many coincidences are possible and how many actually happen, it isn't really that astounding. Consider the possibility that someone who doesn't believe in a god could have just as many of these situations as you have, and many have. I suppose this is where 'faith' enters the issue - belief in something without proof - but isn't that also called gullibility?

If god never makes mistakes, why interfere in the everyday happenings of the universe when he would have had to have created it as he wanted to begin with? Moreover, you are basically admitting that god has a direct influence on physical matter, and should be generating empirical evidence. Wouldn't a postal worker notice a letter disappearing, and another notice it reapprear closer to your home? Why aren't these odd happenings commonplace?

So you're likening an all-powerful being to a stress relief doll? If you think god is required to so such things then it is your business, but do not force your habits onto the lives of others. That's basically my beef with christianity.