As an Atheist what do you teach kids?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by EmptyForceOfChi, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    It all started billions of years ago when a certain arrangement of molecules acted as a catalyst to react two other molecules together that would not otherwise ordinarily have come together. The molecule it made was also a catalyst and made more of itself. This continued, using up the reactants in the environment. The number of these reactions would have given the molecules much more of an opportunity to make a mistake and copy wrong, remember their number would be growing exponentially. Mostly, these errors would just have been a dead end. But then it happened on a variation that made it more complex and better. This allowed even more variation in mutations, and then these families competed for chemicals. Not that there is any intelligence here, it's just a chemical reaction, complexity emerging from simpler systems. Stephen Wolfram showed how this is possible mathematically with his "cellular automata". Reaction became metabolism, they stumble upon more complex systems of heredity, an arms race develops, the result of which is the first cell. Maybe all these reactions happened in preformed cells in rock on the floor of the ocean, so that membranes would provide an advantage. The cells prevailed, and we are bunches of cells that have learned to live together in relative harmony, needing threat detection systems, and now possessing the ability to process information and abstract thought.
     
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  3. 420Joey SF's Incontestable Pimp Valued Senior Member

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    I agree with you completely.
    But that doesent awnser the question of origin.

    I mean before this
    Those molecules for all intended purposes is my god in the sense that I believe the single existance was constructed from these fundamentals I am not stating a complex being came to be from nothing. Thus I believe in one existance and infinite experience. What the fabric of consciousness threads on - experience. The only thing that makes any sense of consciousness to begin with in a meaningful way. Combine this with physical reality and other experiences and you got yourself a reality rather than an existance.
     
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  5. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Why could not your "experience" be called cause and effect? I believe your god is the same as Einstein's in that you are calling the universe god. I have no disagreement with this other than complaining that the word god confuses this concept with a more personal god, one who's legends contradict what we know to be true, based on the action of our reasoning brains, which is after all, the product of whatever creative process is prevailing at this time and place.
     
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  7. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    The zero-balance is evidence of nothing being the true elemental fundamental ground-state. Obviously, you can't show any evidence about what the penultimate "elementals" could be made of, other than nothing.

    Since God is even the opposite of nothing, He can't exist. Since nothing is not God, HE cannot exist. Since the ground state is forever, it was never created, and so God cannot exist. Since God is complex and not elemental, He cannot exist as such. Quadruple whammy. Plus, no one can show the converse that God does exist. Quintuple whammy.

    Time to give up on the Guy.

    Look to the future for some more evolved earth or alien life form, but that cannot be God either. Sextuple whammy.

    It was a good wish, though, to be taken care of here and in an afterlife.

    Plus/minus charge; matter/anti-matter states. How come? Zero-sum.
     
  8. 420Joey SF's Incontestable Pimp Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing is the true elemental fundamental ground-state? So how do you suppose I use this nothing to make elements? Is this supposition threaded on some ultimate understanding you havent enlightened us with? Or are you perpetuating the same nonsense. If we can come from nothing, than that is subjective evidence to me that god must exist. Unless you can demonstrate how nothing can come from something I am inclined to believe that the fabric of consciousness was first and as a frame of reference created the nothing/everything. You cant prove whether this reality is analog or digital. You claim to know something? Your worst than a theist! They have blind faith. Your faith is based on distorted logic. Nothing is the ground state of something. What an obvious and pointless obstruction when your engaged in an argument about god. I dont know whether your point proves god could even be more of a reality or what your intended purposes actually were.
    Your predisposed bias is with organized religion. Again if you are going to base your argument with that were done. It's the same as someone insulting your mom and me perpetuating some argument on that basis alone as if the claim was synomonus to reality.

    Your giving god quite some attributes, he? Nothing is not god? How do you know, what makes you believe this? What is nothing and something? You just said they are essentially the same. God is nothing and something to me.

    Ground state is forever, what are you talking about, you sound like a thiest using similar arguments! These strawman arguments get us nowhere. God is complex and not elemental? Your whole basis on god not existing is threaded on stupid suppositions and associations. The theory you contrast it too is itself a religion. How can you not understand this you don't seem like a stupid fellow.
    Guy? :shrug:
    Time to give up relating to what? God is the essense of consciousness and experience. That is my opinion. Your supposition that reality is baseless is not substantiated.

    Why can it not be god? If consciousness is okay as we understand it your saying its impossible for another planet with different laws of physics to have an entity that can manipulate energy and matter? Consider what happens when we dream. What is that?

    It's better than papayas "infinity divided by one equation"
    But really,
    The zero state. LOL. Thats damn near proving my whole point of god.
     
  9. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    Joey, cause and effect cannot go on forever beneath, an infinite regress, and so it is that the causeless ground-state is where the buck has to stop.

    Nor did you say what else the basics could be made of other than nothing.

    God is a big Zero in that He cannot exist.

    All is less and less stable as we go on down through the simpler states, they readily changing phase or combining, and so on to the simplest state of all—nothing, which is obviously perfectly unstable, as a vacuum, and so the vacuum fluctuates, making it no longer a vacuum but filled with opposites pairs of particles.

    Septuple whammy against God being possible.


    Here's a brand new poem for the occasion:

    Everything and Nothing Forever More

    Another leaf falls, then the branches,
    As the trunk rots away its chances,
    Then sinks and mixes into the soil,
    Within which the molecules toil
    As they of atoms formed the mortal coil—

    Which of stars and electrons and protons became
    From the quantum vacuum fluctuations names
    For the positive and negative balances of nonexistence,
    That penultimate compositioning of our persistance.

    Something ever is and must be, for nothing cannot.
    Energy restrained by time paces its way a lot,
    This lot neither frozen nor totally reactive to be,
    Forming all and any that is possible, eventually.

    Here we are in this parentheses of eternity,
    That of nothing’s paternity and maternity.
     
  10. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    3,015
    Consider what happens when we dream. What is that? — Joey

    The same internal simulation model of reality as when we are awake still operates when we night dream, which is why things look about the same, except for some occasional flaws, but not anything is coming in externally, such as e/m photons bringing information for internally created vision and light, molecules for internal created odors, molecules for internally created taste, air vibrations for internally created sound.

    As there is no light, sound, taste, and smell in the external world when no one is around to sense it, it is just the opposite in a night dream, there being light, sound, taste, and smell only, without the externals of e/m and air vibrations and molecules.

    Although a part of the brain is asleep, the rest runs on through imagination via memories, associations, and some outright noise turning into something, along with long term memories being recorded and who knows what else.

    All waking life is not a dream or consciousness floating around by itself. The intricate brain and body is not just for show, as in a night dream, and senses and instruments really do take things in.
     
  11. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    My child asked me this. . . I told him, I will tell you what happens to you when you die, the day you figure out and tell me what happened to you before you were conceived. . . .

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  12. 420Joey SF's Incontestable Pimp Valued Senior Member

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    Your baseless supposition is just convinient, than? Or is it something you ascertain as fact? What are you even saying? Except nothing, nothing, nothing - apparently nothing is something to you - so please define it. I keep telling you this nothing is god. The mere fabric of consciousness is sufficient in its logic to reason that an intelligence has been formed and that consciousness is some consequence or result of this intelligence or if it helps, the "nothing" being the premise of reality.

    Think of it. We are all just chemicals, particles, whatever. We can say this is physical because of us agreeing so but you cant prove to me that you yourself are not in a very long dream. You ascertain that physical reality conforms to your nothing belief system and that this synomonus with reality or consciousness as a whole.

    How absurd is it to think that you actually exist? Rather than consciousness itself existing. When it corresponds with this physical nature it can be agreed that it exists? This can't be a dream, eh?

    What if all the "data" is god and is an open source of infinity and (nothing) creating 1 consciousness grown within infinite posibility with ourselves having the capacity to create new consciousness?

    What is the scientific basis for nothing giving a fuck about consciousness, in short?

    I dont need to. If its nothing, it's nothing, it doesent prove your point. How is this nothing not god is what your going to have to prove? It's futile. You are saying nothing turning into something is a causeless state?? Your confused. I suspect you know very little.
    I dont think "you" exist either

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    But your experience, perhaps.
    What t'hell are you talking about? What is this proof of, again this seems to me proof of a ultimate frame of reference.
    It's relative I suppose?
    I'm sure somebody will read it?

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  13. 420Joey SF's Incontestable Pimp Valued Senior Member

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    What is that relating to our consciousness. Why is it needed. Your missing my point. Your description of dreams do incline me to believe god must exist though. It's amazing stuff. Makes you wonder if this world is physical or digital under some premise that we define as physical. Makes you wonder if were god on a large scale looking at the smallest areas

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  14. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    So, Joey, you want a real projector or a real God to be simulating all of reality even down to the level of a trillion atoms in a drop of water and in places we can see with microscopes and even simulating each atom "spinning' at 10^24 rps and all the interactions, plus everything that the senses take in, but really don't, although all the effect within "someplace" are simulated? That would surely be a giant hoax and is also the concept of Brahma.

    Pretty big and real Projector whose emissions would operate on some infinite scale instantaneously. How did this Projector come to be first and foremost?

    In truth, the atoms do it all just by themselves, these real entities not controlled by a God either, for that would only disturb what they should do, but I suppose it would be done by magic.
     
  15. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    You would have to study and learn quantum physics.
     
  16. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    (If all is a dream of some real and sleeping Brahman Guy, then too bad he got stuck on the soap opera channel.)
     
  17. universaldistress Extravagantly Introverted ... Valued Senior Member

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    Sciwriter, we have discussed these things in good depth. Who is to say our god (if he/she/it exists) cannot be finite, and therefore real? (as in exist). Do we have to seek a god who created infinity, or can a god not create say multiple universes, and still hold a relevant position?
     
  18. 420Joey SF's Incontestable Pimp Valued Senior Member

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    Your supposition is that physical reality is the premise for consciousness. Trillion (?) atoms in a drop of water and the interactions of such prove the existance of god to me because the costinguent matter we are all apart of. We examine this from our focal point of perspective and draw conclusive opinions we want others to conform to??

    Anwser this question unless your going to continue perpetuating nonsense, ignoring the facts and trying to pass off your half ass written crank theory as a conclusive or sound explanation. How hard is it for a simulation to take place? Again consider when we dream. Our senses are not taking in that information its based on previous interactions.

    Your saying this existance can't be a previous interaction. That there isnt only "ONE EXPERIENCER" and infinite experience. What is the fabric of consciousness threaded on?? Pure biological processing alone? For what. How. Why. What do we know that organized itself in meaningful ways? Your whole shit is full of suppositions and is not a bit more valid than mine.

    This is an axiom that nobody knows that creates regress is the equivlent of me asking you where did the first matter postulate from why is your theory of how quantum physics makes nothing into something any more plausible than a simple god coming forth that simulated our reality that was embodied and created out of the contiguent matter our universe is based on.

    "The atoms do it all by themselves" equates to "God doing it all by yourself" you doubt the existance of god to the extent of trying to argue about it and than you give god attributes so your debunk is any more credible? It's not. God doesent have to be complex or simple, there arbituary terms, god is what there is. The only creation? Which seems more plausible than infinite creation. (I'd rather bet on one fluke than infinite flukes just "because")

    Your whole argument is one of a thiest.
     
  19. 420Joey SF's Incontestable Pimp Valued Senior Member

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    If all is the product of a few molecules that felt like waking up one day, creating and organizing life because they might have been stuck on the discovery channel? Is this there motivation?

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  20. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    OK, I'll pick one of the smart lifeforms here on the forum, which is the closest we have so far that we know of, until we locate some aliens out there.
     
  21. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    Hi Joey. The senses and their processing systems in the brain actually do something with all that hardware and software. It's not just a hoax just for show as a pretty picture. Cut out part of it and all else can be affected.

    Consciousness lets us know what is going on and can also be used for planning without yet committing to action.

    We can also utilize mirror neurons to pick up on and practice in out minds what we observe others doing, as well as felling what they feel, as empathy.

    Dreams are still of the brain's internal simulation model of reality.

    And there's totally absolutely nothing to make things of, plus support for the zero-balance.

    Consciousness has been localized to the brain.
     
  22. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    And now Brahman has canceled two soap operas that have been running in the U.S. for 40 years.
     
  23. 420Joey SF's Incontestable Pimp Valued Senior Member

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    O.K

    Your not explaining anything so I'll move on its obvious your avoiding my questions, trolling and you just dont know anything evident by you posting a random blur on how consciousness works like this makes your point anymore credible.

    Your simply showing me your delusary nature. Our beliefs are essentially the same. Difference your convinced there is a you and this is moot allready theres sufficient evidence to prove we are all interactions of the same contigent matter. We only think we are us because of experience in relation to meaning. You cannot explain the process of how the brain is constructed in the way it is, perhaps you can explain how one day if you get a clue but you cannot explain it fully even than, period. I am inclined to believe this is a big set up. We have experienced everything in any and every way and new things like freewill and others constructs are being created to catalogue experience and focal points that dont have a clue so its all assigned meaning.

    People are soo willing to diss the concept of a god because our existance is based on chaos and order? I think this shows that everything is possible only because consciousness (source of) exists. Experience is not needed. Its too convinient. I wish there were quantom physics glasses you would get what I mean. Stop hiding behind qp the subject itself is subjective proof of god being the only reality.
     

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