Artificial Intelligence

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by kmguru, Apr 16, 2009.

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  1. kmguru Staff Member

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    Very good post. Send me a private email with your contact information...may be we can get in to some serious fun as long as you do not mind government work.

    The real AI will be based on multi-layer predictive modeling of the real world and adjusted continuously on a feedback mechanism...I think that is how our brain works. This will require massive crunching of data sets that not only comes from external sources, but from internally generated models. I can write the algorithm which will fill up several E size drawing but I need a few brave soul to covert them to code.
     
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  3. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    A most curious statement. To write an algorithm would at minimum require some form of pseudo code, thus an understanding of conditional branching, variables, and data structures. If you are capable of writing such, it is but a miner step to code it in a host of computer languages. Or maybe you are too abstract, for example my algorithm to the extreme abstraction for chess. "Make all the right moves to win."

    A modern game requires millions of lines of code, from the OS and drivers that interface with the user, to the tools used to create content, and the game logic. Several E size drawing (what ever that means) would hold only a tiny amount of code. The devil is in the detail, as my chess algorithm shows I would need a brave soul to convert it to code.
     
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  5. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    Well, a slightly different take on this......

    one of the many topics I spent time studying at u was data structures. To be more specific, AI data structures in Pascal, way back when. On a Honeywell Multix mainframe and those old lime-green and black monitors.

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    I would have been quite safe with the British at Bunker Hill, as I had no whites to my eyes for years - only reds. (joke)

    Since I heard an interview on NPR with some 12 year olds who were playing Diablo, I have been playing versions of that myself. I am currently playing (for the I-have-lost-count-now time) Diablo 2 Expansion (Blizzard Productions).

    Yeah, the AI program is primitve, but it takes into consideration my experience as shown by my gameplay and compensates for that by making itself more challenging and difficult.

    I love Kurzwheil....don't think AI's will be so bad, same with people. We will continue along - with our mechanical pals.

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    We will be some of those mechanical pals, and I will be among them myself.

    I look forward to the day when my house is somewhat sentient, can speak with me and track my bio's J.I.C. Same for other stuff. I have no problems with AI's, do not think they will "eliminate" us, figure they will be helpful, much like dogs and other close human companions.

    But then, you must remember that I buy into what Kurzwhiel and the other futurists are preaching - if you can stay alive long enough, technology will give you options that are currently unavailable.

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    My hero, Jack LaLane, is now 94 and going strong. If I can hang in there like Jack, I will be his age in another 34 years. Hopefully, it will then be possible to download my persona into an android or robot frame....

    and I will be one of those mechanical intelligences that just go on as long as there are spare parts to keep them going. I think that I could get into seeing what Alpha Centari has to offer.
     
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  7. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    Oh yeah - I got that govt. offer when I was in Combinatorics at u in math grad school.

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    Turned it down then, it was too restrictive.

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  8. kmguru Staff Member

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    Definitely. You are so smart...I bet you can single handedly write the Windows 7 code or a similar OS...why need thousands of software programmers....

    You are right again. and you can do that I bet in a month all by your lonesome.... Amazing...may be you should write the program for Zynga.

    You are write again...you are on a roll...The DNA of a Human has only about 20,000 genes...now how may pages you need to print that out?

    Granted that to express those, you have to code about 3164.7 million chemical nucleotide bases (A, C, T, and G).

    But with out the proper gene sequences, what you may get after ~4000 million lines of code is a rice plant (rice plant has 50,000 genes)

    An E size paper is 34 inch by 44 inch.

    The Erwin Process Modeler can take the complex designs (the flow charts can be printed out) and create the data model. But without the process model everything downstream would not meet the expectations of the overlord!

    My mention of E size comes from my engineering background where I design expert control systems for refineries and complex chemical systems from scratch.

    Of course you know all that....

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  9. kmguru Staff Member

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    Unfortunately they have the money. I tried to find private sources of funds including Intel, NEC and Cisco...they are interested, but not really....
     
  10. kmguru Staff Member

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    At sciforums, we have been talking about this for a long time (scan the archives)

    Many things can happen, but Kurzweil is right in the sense that by 2040 and thereafter, if we did not have a global collapse of our economy, our processors and systems will be extremely powerful to upload our brain matrix.

    I was this close to developing a system for the Defense Department a few years ago but the funds were pulled by another group - so the ideas died in the vine.

    When by 2040, all the major data centers are connected, who knows, a self replicating virus and an adaptive anti-virus may be the building blocks to the emergent properties of the skynet?

    I have the logics in my head, all I need is a large data set and a purpose...we are working on that. May be sooner that later....It is all about building blocks...92% is there. Need to add another 6% to create a virtual human.

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  11. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I am sure hoping that Kurzweil is right. If he isn't, at least I will die healthy and fit.

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    Unfortunately, I have little faith in the government. At the time, I was concerned about passing the background check to work for the CIA. Now, I have done subcontractual work for them, been put through the mill and had enough of government work.

    The whole home AI is fascinating though, as many of us could use such a thing as we age at home and need more assistance.

    The thought of having the option to 'retire' into a cyber - world without concerns for a biological body any longer is entertaining too. It could be almost limitless in scope.

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  12. kmguru Staff Member

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    Somewhere in this forum we discussed at length about this. Since it would take at least 20 years to develop a decent virtual world with AIs running around...for now it is just a speculation...my version is

    You upload your brain and leave it running in the virtual world managed by a large corporation in perpetuity. You update your virtual self every year until your death. The upkeep can be paid by your estate or by your kids. Then when you die, your kids can visit you with a neural interface for their natural life. Imagine Xmas, Birthdays etc. If your friends do the same, then you can have a virtual colony in the cloud.

    Since in about 100 years, the entire virtual world can be inside a self contained little box, I am sure large data centers (cloud computer) can hold many millions of people.

    Besides the entertainment and other personal value, I think, we can use the virtual community to solve complex problems as world would get more complex in the future.

    Yes, possibilities are endless...
     
  13. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. It is difficult to say how long it will take to develop the technologies necessary to do this stuff, but I bet the military is hot on it already...imagine a soldier who never tires and whose body parts could just be switched out if he/she got damaged in a battle.

    The US military is already proposing to allow injured soldiers who have been fitted with advanced prosthetics to return to battle if they so wish and can perform their duties. At a certain point, it is quite plausible to consider when that soldier is more mechanical than biological. Then it becomes plausible for the actual human sentience to move from one machine to another. If that can be done, then same could be stored indefinitely. (probably copied too)

    A cloud computer could also be sent to another star system to supervise the terraforming of a suitable planet for later colonization, and/or to raise a colony that was frozen and stored on board.

    Instead of the futurists projection of humanity dying off as it is replaced by machines, I can easily see a world where becoming a mechanical being or part of a computer would be a stage of normal human life.
     
  14. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    I looked at this from a slightly different angle. Currently the main problem is peoples concerns "What if the technology doesn't exist when I die?", "It could take 20+ years to be a reality?".

    This is where I reasoned on the Universe itself being an "Emulation". You see our current understanding is incomplete in regards to what the universe is, where it came from and how it works. This is because that's what we begin with, however it doesn't mean the universe isn't "Transhumanist+ Ready" it's really just about change peoples opinions, identifying achievable scopes and getting people to work together towards a common goal.

    We can't sit around like some religious order with a belief, because that will get us no where.

    One of those common goals would obviously be "Retroactive application", a form of "Time manipulation". This means no matter when you die (no matter what year) your construct "exists" on the system.

    You wouldn't go through a process of occasionally updates, if you've looked at some of Lorenz's material, you'd know that the longer the period of time that an update is left the more chaos occurs between the two update points, especially if you're intending to replicate an Analogue reality into Digital.

    This would therefore suggest that within this universe you would have a Symbiotic relationship with an AI component that would sit in a "5th Dimension". (I know that sounds a bit woo-woo, but what I mean is that if you generate a time paradox, the AI could be situated in a "Parallel and Future" universe. and be bridged with your current observational universe.)

    Using this dimensional parameter is the main reason why the universe would be emulated, as in an emulation you can bend and distort the mathematics to fit your goal (Any alteration would recursively update all reference frames), as opposed to helplessly trying to flap your arms round dealing with rules and methods "set in stone" currently held by the consensus.

    I suppose you could suggest that in my mind I have the equivalent of a Babbage Engine, but it entails the whole universe.

    I also suggest that such an engine should never be owned by a single company, as technically "we all make up the people in the world in which we exist", to be stuck in a world alone or dealing with only the finite knowledge to which we've succumbed by that point would technically be a prison sentence in the long run. We'd either hate to be alone in an artificial emulation or prefer to have some way to exist outside an emulated world in the form of robotics.

    These however are all proverbial onion layers to "What it is"

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  15. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    "You" wouldn't retire into the cyber-world, though.
    All you would end up doing is creating a copy inside a cyber-world.
    The copy is no more you than a clone would be.
    Yes, it might have the same memories and personalities up to the point of download - and other people might genuinely think it is "you".
    But think... if the transfer/download is done and the biological "you" is not terminated at the same time... all you have is a biological self and a cyber-copy.
    I am fairly sure that if the biological "you" is terminated that your biological consciousness will also terminate. It doesn't transfer with the copy.
    So when your biological body dies... you will also die... but you will leave a copy. But don't be fooled into thinking that the copy is you... no matter what the copy says, as the copy might genuinely believe it is you.

    For this same reason I would never enter a "Star Trek" style transporter... all it does is create copies and kills the original... but the "clever" thing is that the copies will genuinely believe they are the original rather than a copy.
    If heaven existed and if Star Trek transporters exist then there will be vast numbers of copies of the same person all queueing up to get in.
     
  16. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    If the "copy" and the "delete" were carried out as a continuous, simultaneous process, at a certain point your "seat of consciousness" would move from your biologic "self" to your cyber "self". When the process is completed what would remain would be the cyber "self". Whether or not this is "really" you would then be a matter of "semantics" or "belief". I do not believe in a "soul" or a "spirit" so that does not come into play here.

    You may well state that the remaining entity is no longer "me", but "I" would indeed disagree with you on that point - adamantly and with cause. I would suggest that your statement would be a matter of "belief" and not a statement of actual fact. If we were both in the USA and money was involved, no doubt you would take it to court where it would get passed on up to the US Supreme Court who would then rule on the issue.

    I would have to remind you that pretty much every cell in your body has been replaced many times over, yet you still "believe" that "you" are "you".

    The crux of your argument has to do with what exactly it is that we consider to be the actual person - is it the body (the 'wetware' or maybe just your brain?) or the sum total of all of the life experience you had garnered from your biologic existence? If it is the latter, than I submit that the cyber self is the sole and actual self - the entity that you consider "you" when you refer to yourself.
     
  17. kmguru Staff Member

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    So if science proves that Time just moves in discrete steps where everything is copied from yesterday to today, are you going to worry that you are no longer you because you can not remember what happened when you went to sleep? OR that you about an hour ago may not be you now because the universe copied you to you?

    After all, some say that time splits to a new reality under certain conditions....

    Something to noodle through...
     
  18. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    I covered this in another thread: [link]

    In a nutshell, if your observations are stepped and routed through a mnemonic symbiont and rerouted back to your biological, you generate a duality system that functions as one individual intellect. You wouldn't have "copies" of yourself, you would be that overall. The only difficult bit would be to "taper off" your biological component when it gets close to it's demise.
     
  19. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    I agree with that bit, and suspect that the technology will cover those sticky little eventualities when we get there.

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