Argentina, Brazil recognize Palestine; Israel miffed

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Tiassa, Dec 7, 2010.

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  1. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Meh, it's worked for Kosovo (and plenty of other places) so far. Of course you also have the putative Russian-backed "states" inside Georgia, so it can go screwy of course.

    I'd say the bigger question mark is how such recognitions play into the dynamic between Hamas and Fatah. These recognitions seem to be, effectively, recognitions of a Palestinian state including both the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and governed by the PA (which is controlled by Fatah). That would seem to further isolate and delegitimize Hamas, which raises the question of exactly where they're going to fit in to this, and how the PA is supposed to govern that Gaza Strip portion of the state that's getting recognized.
     
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  3. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    But surely you realize there was a much greater international coalition here? Not just a few countries. All of this happened also happened in the wake of a war. And then, of course, there were UN, US and then EU peacekeepers on the ground in the Balkans for years.
     
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  5. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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  7. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    I understand many nations have acknowledged the theory of a Palestinian state. But none of them have come remotely close to the sort of effort that occured in Balkans, effort which is necessary to actually create new states.

    My larger concern is how these kind of moves play out down the road. What if someone decided there was Kurdish state? Or a Tamil state? Etc...
     
  8. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Well, you're comparing Palestinian aspirations for a state on lands occupied by Israel, to aspirations for Albanian and other ethnic states on lands occupied by Serbia. Of course nowhere near as much effort has been exerted in Israel's case, NATO has never bombed Israel, so how can you draw such a comparison? At a minimum, the West should (and will) begin retracting diplomatic, financial and military support until Israel shows a sincere will to make peace, which will obviously have to involve a settlement freeze and a proposal for viable borders (what Israel has offered in the past consisted of a West Bank carved into several chunks and separated by roadblocks and checkpoints).

    According to UN law, Tamils and Kurds have the same right to self-determination as everyone else. Anyone preventing them from having a vote for independence on lands where they constitute the majority, is an occupier and an opponent of democracy. My answer to your comparisons is that Palestinians, Kurds and Tamils are all entitled to independence on lands where they have constituted the majority for decades/centuries, and those amongst us who respect freedom and human rights must accept and support such aspirations.
     
  9. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    If every ethnic group has a right to self-determinacy, chaos ensues and the nation state dies in favor of small tribal lands.
     
  10. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    And if ethnic groups are repressed from pursuing their own aspirations, chaos ensues for them if not for the majority as a whole. Most ethnic groups, in countries where they are treated well, can see that the chaos of separation isn't in their own personal interests. In countries where they're not satisfied with their treatment, that's where you see a majority supporting independence. My country, Canada, has already given Quebec two referendums to negotiate on greater sovereignty/outright separation, and they voted to stay united with the rest of the country on both occasions. If at some point down the road they want another vote, we'll give it to them, with a clear message on what such a vote entails, as well as the basic fact that Quebec will not be walking away with the whole pie even if a majority vote to leave.

    We recognize French Canadians as having held sovereignty over a substantial portion of Quebec as well as other parts of Canada, i.e. in those areas where they've always been the ones responsible for local infrastructure and the rule of law. We recognize their right to self-determination and, if they so choose, independent national aspirations. What we haven't been clear about in the past is how Quebec would be carved up in the event of separation, as well as the loss of substantial economic subsidies which the rest of the country has been paying them for decades. In the last referendum, we also failed to make it clear that the vote, as worded, was about negotiating towards a sovereign Quebec, and would not in itself constitute a final deal or transfer of control. Those laws have been changed, our message is more clear than it used to be, and although French culture and economic strength are protected by the Canadian nation as a whole, if a majority of French Canadians still want an independent nation for themselves, so be it, they have that basic right.

    Now what's the alternative to separatism? If it causes too much chaos, then what you're really arguing for is a single Israeli/Palestinian state, with equal rights for all regardless of religion and race, and with the implicit right for all Palestinian refugees and their descendants to live anywhere they choose within that state. I don't think a state like that is practically achievable in this generation, but the Palestinians aren't going anywhere, so they're either going to have an independent state, or they're all going to receive Israeli citizenship. Which do you prefer?
     
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Bork has the key: treatment is the overriding factor.
     
  12. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Hear, Hear! Zionism has been a bitter poison, instrumental in a devastating cycle of injustice. Welcome home to the entire Mideast- Arab Jews in diaspora, and all others who embrace coexistence and multiculturalism- Respect and encouragement to all who reject ethnic supremacism anywhere, and who will support a peaceful, prosperous, and post-zionist Levant.
     
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    One could do so more assuredly, and with less internal contradiction, were ethnic supremacism everywhere to really be rejected, or even mentioned.
     
  14. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Why should justice come later to Israel/Palestine than to anywhere else? Why do you suggest that assuredness and agreement are externalities?
     
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Well, it would be good if justice had even started in the portion of the world that usually leads the criticism of Israel. One cannot say it came later if it has not so much as been proposed to the east of them. You did just mention the Middle East, after all.
     
  16. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    and lets see why a coalition never came because people like you in power in the United states have accitively worked to prevent such a thing from happening




    and the crass arrogance in your statement is appaliing most countries haven't recognized the theory as you so mockingly and denigratingly say but have recognized the state its self.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2011
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    a nation state is a state that is for a coalesced nation. the palestinians, tamils, and kurds while all coalesced nations are all ones that have been conquered or prevented in some way from achieving the ability to create a nation. the tamils were a people that probably at one one point had their own state in southern India and were forced to the other places by the british, the kurds came together as a people and an several states that were conquered by the turks(of the ottoman flavor) bout 500 years ago, and the palestinians and the palestinians are the continuation of the arab peoples living in palestine and the surrounding areas for thousands of years who were denied their rights and that which they were promised in a manner that borders the criminal. all of these people either have the right to choose their territories political status or to return to their historical homelands( palestine, kurdistan ,and southern india/sri lanka respectively for these people mentioned)




    another thing a right to self determintation for two of these groups has nothing to do with their ethnicity but their status a the rightful legal resident of territoires. I understand why you oppose them getting their rights as you have shown a belief in might makes right and have suggested that giving these people their rights would interfere with the "rights" of those that have victimized them. not ever ethnic or religious group has the right to self determination as the right( as those of us who you decided to look up how one garners said right know) is not invested in an ethncity(except for certain circumstances) but the residents of territories. the only time the right is garnered to an ethnic group is when they have been prevented form living in their territory and prevent from returning
     
  18. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    This 'recognition', does not recognise the Right of Return for the some 3 million Palestinians living around the Mid East. It does not recognise the Palestinian states pre 1948 border as what constitutes 'Palestine'. The only solution is the recognition of the return of all Palestinians, the dissolution of the West Bank and Gaza, bestowing on all Palestinians equal citizenship with Israelis. This way the majority people will control that nation, that is the Palestinians.
     
  19. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Clearly they don't want to legitimize centuries of Islamic efforts at ethnic cleansing and religious rule by the sword.

    No, the only solution will come when we burn all the witches at the stake! Let's start with one of my neighbours, I think she's been doing some suspicious stuff and she won't openly tell me what she does at home in private- obviously she has something she's hiding from me, probably sorcery.
     
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    they could have another thousand years and not equal the christians
     
  21. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    They outdid the Christians in the first 200 years of their existence, nevermind the last 1500 years. If you want to talk about body counts, I would have a couple of points to make:

    1) The world population has literally exploded in the last 200 years. 10 000 deaths in 600AD meant something completely different from what it meant in WW1. Furthermore, body counts from ancient wars are pretty unreliable; rape, murder and ethnic cleansing of the civilian populations wasn't tracked the same way army sizes were. Also, it's a lot harder to ethnically cleanse with arrows and spears than it is with missiles and toxic gas, so it just shows you how much extra effort they used to put in.

    2) Even in Iraq, Muslims have murdered far more fellow Muslims than America has. Yeah the Crusades were bad, and the Muslims have been involved in more than their share of aggression too. Two wrongs don't make a right, nor does holding only one side accountable when both sides are guilty of crimes.
     
  22. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    horse shit christians killed of hundreds of cultures and societies. more deaths doesn't always mean they destroyed more. christians killed of hundreds possible thousands of cultures in the americas and sub saharran africa their literally are enough remaining cultures for islam to catch up. top say Islam out did christianity in its first 200 years than what christianity did in its history is a falsehood bordering on slanderous propaganda
     
  23. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    I think we have to be realistic and accept that demographics will play out the end in Israel. Originally the idea was that in 1948 the displaced Palestinians that had fled into Jordan would in a matter of 2 generations forget their origins and become Jordanians, it hasnt worked out that way. Me personally I see a point in time when Jews will become like Mid East Christian minorities, and all this past expence and war will be for nothing.
    With Americas economic demise, Israel benefactor and protector, that is the first nail in the coffin lid, second is the clear emergence of Iran in the region with the EU wanting to make that Iran a client state. It wont be long before Israel resembles fractured Lebanon.
     
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