Argentina, Brazil recognize Palestine; Israel miffed

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Tiassa, Dec 7, 2010.

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  1. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    I'm sorry, I don't consider oppressing people understandable, regardless of one's ancestor's history.

    I also don't consider it acceptable, nor does it make their racist and bigoted choices and laws and policies acceptable. Keep in mind, such oppresive and bigoted policies also target Arabic Jews and African Jews. Care to tell me how the Holocaust makes such comments from the Israeli leadership acceptable, or as you put it, understandable:

    "Two positive things happened," he told a conference of haredi government officials in Nir Etzion this week. "Members of the haredi public seriously joined the workforce. And on the national level, the unexpected result was the demographic effect on the non-Jewish public, where there was a dramatic drop in the birth rate."

    (Words spoken by PM Netanyahu)
    ​


    As descendants of victims of the Holocaust, Mr Netanyahu should do well to remember the crimes committed against his ancestors is not justification, nor does it make his actions and words understandable.

    And I think that is what you don't quite understand.

    We all know of the Holocaust. We all know the stories and we have all seen and cried over the horrors committed against Jews and non-Jews in Europe. What it does not do is excuse or make their treatment of another people 'understandable'.

    But you do remind us of it, constantly. Even now, you plea that we understand Israel's position because of its people's history. My response to that is that their history should have ensured that they did not go on and treat others so badly.

    Nice dodge and nice little twist.

    The reasoning behind it is simple. You supposedly find it abhorrent that Palestinians are treated this way... Then you say "but" and quite literally, your argument reminds me of an old woman wringing her hands trying to excuse the inexcusable, or to use your words, make it understandable.

    Reeks of desperation on your part.. for us to see the "but".. and to understand why they do what they do..

    Which thread? You mean the thread where we had to educate you as to why Rwanda's genocide was a genocide? Or this one, where I say that the raising of the Holocaust as an excuse, or to make it 'understandable' that Palestinians shouldn't get too much recognition is wrong?

    Do you consider that a blunder Geoff?

    Or do you consider it a blunder that I think you are a bigot?

    About as much as the Holocaust has to do with it.
     
    Bells, Jan 26, 2011
    #321

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  3. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thats just hasbara, finding excuses for the inexcusable. Its become second nature to zionists and their supporters. No matter what they do, no matter how extreme their action, they are always, but always, the victims. One could almost declare them as professional victims, its so much like a full time occupation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
    S.A.M., Jan 26, 2011
    #322

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  5. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    To take up quadra's petard for a moment: how did anything he just wrote produce the above speculation as to his opinion?

    Well, that's a slight overstatement. I do have some concern, as any other reasonable person, about discrimination against Jews or anyone else; it's perhaps more poignant in the case of the Jews since there was a very marked attempt to murder every single one of them a little while back, but your description above is utter hyperbole, I'm afraid.

    I also have to ask: in what way do you mean this? Generally? If One-State comes to pass?

    Excuse me? Pure libel.

    I suspected this was much of the reason for your anger.

    First off, who is "we"? Is "we" you? What is it you expected me to do here? To rant and rave incoherently, as you sometimes do? Do I do this for the Jewish Holocaust?

    I did in fact ask, once upon a time, whether the Rwandan Genocide should be called a Genocide or a Holocaust, since I wasn't sure how distinct Tutsis and Hutus were. I think I thought at the time that it might be a Holocaust ("Rwandan Holocaust"), by which distinction the Jewish Holocaust might be correctly called a Jewish Genocide. Please take note of the fact that neither such change in terminology is meant in any way - and forgive my ignorance if I am overlooking something critical in such terminology - to demean or diminish either, but to call them what they are. This may seem cold-blooded, but my appreciation of their horror is not. Let that be an end to it, once and for all. All right?

    Sorry, but I have to ask again:who is proposing this?

    The treatment of the Palestinians is not the slow march into the gas chamber; that much is undeniable, Bells. Nor is it a stupendous pandemic of bloody massacre, as in Rwanda.

    Well, I think the representation of religious minorities in Islamic nations all through the Middle East suggests quite strongly what the fact of the Jewish community in Israel-become-Palestine would be. You (somewhat weaselly) describe this as "integration", without taking any note of how "integration" is working out for other religious minorities in the ME.

    Please locate the word "Palestine" or "Palestinians" in that post. Please identify in what possible sense it is I thought it was best if "Palestinians got only the crumbs", instead of what I actually wrote about "crumbs".

    And please be honest about it. You've already misrepresented me several times in this thread, within the last few posts.

    We certainly should disregard that, since it has nothing to do with your points at all, or with mine, or with my comments on Israeli perspective.

    No, you assert that it means the Israelis have free license, or that I don't hold them culpable. I do.

    It amazes me that you can go on about how people in this thread are attempting to suppress Palestinian autonomy, when in fact I am a proponent of Palestinian autonomy. Have you no shame?

    You again misconstrue my statements. Where I have mentioned this, I have done so as a hint as to the defensiveness of the Israeli mindset. It is not a ethical hunting license, and it should not be taken in this way. This is the third or fourth time I've mentioned this explicitly in this thread. In the next part of your post - which was more of the same - you actually said I thought it was "acceptable". This is false.

    No kidding. Who again is saying that Israeli oppression of Palestinians is acceptable? Not I.

    I have learned from the masters.

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    But in seriousness, see below.

    Then your comprehension of English is insufficient; I have never seen it used in the way you describe, sorry.

    Generally, it appears that you are confusing the concept of "understandable" (and I don't believe I even used that word) as "not unexpected" with that of "acceptable" (in which sense I never used "understandable"). I am using - so far as that actually goes - the former parallel: "not unexpected". If this offends you, you will need to define moral benchpoints for "not unexpected" and derive proof as to why I am on the wrong side of it.

    I hope this clears that up, although I pessimistically expect the acrimony will drag on anyway. Que sera sera.

    However, I am forced to note that your "hand wringing" does sound a lot like dismissal of the history of oppression against Jews; this isn't related to the issues surrounding Palestine or Palestinians (I think it best if I simply tell you this directly instead of relying on inference), but it is worrying as a separate issue. Let me ask you this: if you brought up Rwanda in reference to some outrage of the Western powers, and I dismissed those casualties as "hand wringing", would you not call my choice of words callous or sadistic? I think you would. I don't think I'd use "hand wringing" to describe either the informing of modern psychology or a history of accumulated tragedy, or to describe the comments of a person discussing either of those things. I think it would take an extraordinarily callous mind - consciously or subconsciously - to do so. If I malign you, please do inform me.

    I like the "we". Who else was in on this educational initiative?

    More importantly - and critically since I think I have finally landed on the source of your outrage - you do realize that my question was not is it a genocide in terms of the numbers of people killed and the moral horror but rather should it properly be called a genocide or a holocaust? There is no question that Rwanda should be called one or the other; you seem to think that I am in favour of calling it nothing at all, which is utterly wrong. I think you're trying to imagine me as some kind of denier: yet I think you know in your heart that this could not be farther from the truth.

    It is one of your larger ones, yes.

    Blunder? I think "mistake" would be sufficient, relative to the scale. "Blunder" I'd always felt reserved for larger issues, affecting more people. But it could be a blunder if you like.

    Is it a blunder if I think the same of you?

    Then why did you drag it into our discussion?:

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2679954&postcount=304
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
    GeoffP, Jan 26, 2011
    #323

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  7. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    Ask him. Apparently it should be 'understandable'.

    Your concern has been noted, repeatedly on this forum.

    But lets look at discrimination, shall we? The ironic thing about this whole debate, that of bigotry, is that it carries on in Israel, without the Holocaust having to be brought up. Which begs the question, why do you bring it up?

    Geoff, you couldn't even come out and say that Rwanda was a genocide and we spent pages trying to show you how it was. So stop the wailing and the accusations of slander. You forget, many of us have been watching you post on here for a number of years now.

    Speaking of ranting and raving incoherently...

    The Holocaust is not just a Jewish Holocaust. Millions who were not Jews also perished at the hands of the Nazi's, something you also need to consider and the survivors and their descendants continue to be abused and denied any rights in Europe to this day. Why have they been denied their own State? Why do you not recognise them or even mention them? And as per this thread, why do you wish to make the treatment of Palestinians "understandable" because of the Holocaust, which had fuck all to do with them until they were forced to flee their homes and land in fear?

    Your ignorance about Rwanda, possibly a more important genocide of our generation is noted and has been noted repeatedly. The "we" amounted to those of us in that thread who had to lower ourselves to your 12 year old level of comprehension to make you get it. Your comment about it being a genocide 'if I said so' was also noted.

    I don't hate you because of that. I just don't respect you at all because you are a flaming bigot.

    Who is proposing that Palestinians should be recognised and that they should be given their own State?

    Who do you think Geoff. Shall we see how the Israeli Government views the world's attempt to legitimise them as a people and as a state? Should we have a look to see how the Israeli Government views any State that dares recognise the Palestinians in any way, shape or form? Lets look at what they said about Ireland's upgrading the diplomatic status of the Palestinians, shall we?

    In response to the announcement, the Foreign Ministry issued a statement saying that Israel expressed regret over Ireland's decision, adding that "we are not surprised by this move in light of the Ireland's longstanding slanted policy with regards to the Israel-Palestinian conflict."

    "The Irish move does not help the peace process, as it strengthens the Palestinian illusion that the Palestinians can advance their interests without returning to the negotiations table,'" the Foreign Ministry statement read.

    (Source)
    ​


    Considering how much the Palestinians were willing to give up in negotiations and just how much Israel pissed on it all... They do have a cheek!

    Oh I'm sorry.. so their suffering and treatment is not worthy of further consideration?

    Your comments amount to 'well it's not as bad, so they shouldn't complain'..

    Fucking pitiful really.

    But not unexpected coming from you.

    Egads! You mean I'm sounding like a Muslim?

    This is akin to you seeing Jews in Roman's posts, even though he never even mentioned it in that other thread that saw you spinning in circles.

    To you Israel should get the greater share of the pie. God forbid Israel has to integrate with the natives.. The horror of that. So if Palestinians get just crumbs, then that's fine for you. They're getting crumbs now Geoff. But that's okay because if they get anything more.. well.. lets not forget the Jewish Holocaust.

    It has everything to do with this subject matter.

    I'll put it this way. The IDF can go on a wholesale slaughter of Palestinians and amongst the condemnation, you'd still bring up the spectre of the "Jewish Holocaust" and explain why their feelings are somewhat 'understandable'.

    Your perspective is that of an American Christian. Funny that. For example, I linked an article earlier in this thread that shows how 40% of Israeli settlement is actually on privately owned Palestinian land, which is illegal under Israeli law and under International laws. You didn't say boo about it. Tell me, how is that 'understandable' because of the Holocaust?

    Bullshit.

    You hold them culpable until you bring up the Holocaust to try to explain why it might be understandable. You remind us that their neighbours hate them and you fear that there could be another Holocaust, disregarding that Israel has more military might than all of its neighbours combined, along with nukes.

    You are only a supporter of Palestinian autonomy to a point.

    And as I keep saying to you, there is no excuse for their actions or behaviour.

    They are now the victimisers. Not the victims.

    You tell me that it should be somewhat understandable. I say bullshit.

    Sorry.. understandable.

    Your position in this is that their supposed fear (even though they are a military super power in the region with nuclear arms) because of what happened in the past makes it understandable. Again, I say bullshit.

    And here you lie.

    As you say.. it is understandable.. Their treatment is bad, but it's understandable if we remember history, etc.. That has been your argument in this forum Geoff. So do not lie.

    Oh here we go..

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    You are so ridiculous that it's not even funny anymore.

    Yes, my accusing you of hand wringing somewhat diminishes the pain of Jews in the Holocaust. Hilarity at its best.

    Read the thread. There were many of us incredulous at the extent of your idiocy and yes, hand wringing.

    And as I pointed out above. I find you a bigot.

    I don't hate you. I just have no respect for you at all because you are a bigot. It really is that simple.

    I know you want to play the victim of big bad Bells who's out to get you.. but really, it's more a lack of respect. I tend to not respect bigots. So I don't respect you.

    You admitted your lack of knowledge or understanding in that thread yourself. Your tone indicated a lack of care. You were only keen in reminding us of the Holocaust.. Anything below that doesn't really warrant much of a mention, unless it's the Armenian genocide, which you like to go after Muslims on this forum for.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
    Bells, Jan 26, 2011
    #324
  8. pjdude1219

    pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    do your expect him to get. the idea that jews need to be privaliged is ingrained into Israel supporters how else do you think they deal with the fact that Israel creation and existence are predicated on ignoring and violating the law and legal principles
     
    pjdude1219, Jan 26, 2011
    #325
  9. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Bells - I'll make this short for the moment; or possibly longer, since I regret to say that you just aren't worth my time for a detailed response on every 'point' you raise.

    Besides your outrage - real or farcical - being completely misplaced, you have skipped through my clarifications with your usual lack of interest in anything except your narrative. You don't seem understand the word "understandable", which is actually kind of funny, you ignored - again - the actual point of the Rwanda discussion, and you've stuck to this utterly asinine point that because Jews have had a long history of oppression they deserve somehow to oppress other people. This is not now, and never had been, my argument, which you would know if you possessed even the most basic abilities of reading and/or comprehension. You couple this with inaccurate recall, resulting in sufficient lability for you to spread around whatever manure you like, resulting in off-topic screeds. For example in the above: you now twist my apparent injection of the Holocaust into our discussion (which was actually done by you) into some kind of dismissal of all the other victims of holocaust, which is a borderline insane conclusion. Really.

    I have to ask: do you frame your arguments this way because the issue of Israeli oppression of Palestinians is so overwhelming that it provokes an inability to distinguish between the proposition of an ethical license to murder and a statement of the historical basis of modern attitudes? Or is it that you actually do understand the difference - I mean, I see hints of that above - and that you simply don't care? I think that if this tiny point is so rage-provoking there is little hope for anything better.

    And I have to say that it's not the first time you've done this, obviously: and not even just to me. You seem to fly off on these incredible rages every time an issue comes on the forum that you consider stomp-worthy. The reader is then treated to pages of vitriol that might make Adolf Hitler tug uncomfortably at his collar.

    However, I am glad to hear you hold no respect for me. I respond that I, similarly, hold none for you: you have earned almost none and what you have earned you have thrown away in ignorance, bias, hysteria and seemingly even bigotry, yes. I mean, your ravings sound like something a rabid anti-Semite trying to gloss over their hatred would produce. How do I know? Instead of focusing on what I actually wrote, you twist every possible phrase (and even some that have no conceivable connection to the idea you develop) into some kind of either a) dismissal of Palestinian statehood (which you say I support "up to a point", while you're very careful not to explain what you think that point actually is) or b) somehow a dismissal of every other victim of holocaust or genocide, because when talking about the tragedies of Jewish history informing modern Israeli political paranoia, it is somehow relevant to bring up Rwanda, the Roma in the Holocaust, the murder of communists and homosexuals, and Pol Pot.

    Sorry: how are these things directly related to Israeli politics, as posed in our discussions? We explain the actual point to you, and you just carry on trolling and trolling the same argument. This fixation on tu quoque has to end, Bells. It's not what the narrative that I and others are trying to educate you on is about.

    In summary: besides being - IMHO - a vile racist, Bells, you're also just not a serious person, IMHO. Yet, if you must persist in your foolery, then so be it: but I strongly urge you to seek counseling for anger issues.
     
    GeoffP, Jan 26, 2011
    #326
  10. pjdude1219

    pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    wait your the one who thinks naked aggression for a want and denying a people the rights because of that is ok and that giving the people harmed in that their rights is wrong and yet bells is the racist. its nice to see you contempt and bigotry toward Islam and arabs hasn't deminished nor your superiority complex
     
    pjdude1219, Jan 26, 2011
    #327
  11. pjdude1219

    pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    NO I am not the law nor do I make but unlike you I respect it and actualy you know understand it exist. I leave the conceit of playing god and determining when people have the right to break the law up to people like you and geoff because appartently both of you have discovered the means where people can be granted the "right" to be above the law.
     
    pjdude1219, Jan 26, 2011
    #328
  12. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    A lie. Also trolling, actually.

    Same.

    I suspect so, frankly.

    Sorry: how is the historical context of Israeli paranoia contemptuous or bigoted? You're subscribing to the same narrative as Bells.
     
    GeoffP, Jan 26, 2011
    #329
  13. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    Speaking of anger management issues...

    Yes, it shows.

    Oh no, I understand it fully.

    Your crying over this point is really funny as shit. And I'll get to why it is in a bit.

    You and another claimed that the Holocaust makes the reactions of Israel towards its detractors somewhat understandable. That peace talks between Israel and Palestinians and recognition of Palestine - that Israel's reaction to that is somewhat understandable because of the persecution Jews faced in the past. I don't buy that. The reason I don't buy that is because Israel is one of the most military capable countries in the world. They dominate the region and are nuclear ready - in that they have nukes while none of their detractors have anything near the capabilities they have. You would have to be batshit insane to want to start a war with Israel. Not only is it armed to the teeth, it also has the explicit and implicit military and financial support of the US (and military support and back up of pretty much all Western countries). So you will have to excuse me if I don't buy the 'it should be understandable why they don't like or trust their neighbours' line.

    No. I wanted to know why the Holocaust was brought up in this subject.

    But then, as the Israeli Government has stated, other States recognising Palestine is anti-semitic and gives in to Palestinian delusions or illusions that they are or should be a State. For someone who supposedly supports that recognition, I found it interesting that you remaines silent about how Israel reacted to it.. Oh wait, that's right.. it's understandable.

    I'm sorry, but what?

    I want to know what the fucking Holocaust has to do with Brazil recognising Palestine and this is the shit you come out with?

    Do you think recognising and granting Statehood to the Palestines will give "ethical license to murder"? You'd have to be a dumbarse if you do.

    *WAAH*

    Poor you. Big bad Bells daring to say that you are a hypocritical bigot who has a tendency to flip the issues around and not substantiate his claims?

    Poor baby.

    You want some cheese with your whine?

    Oh here we go. Now there is something that wasn't expected.

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    So I am an anti-semite for saying that Israel should not mistreat or abuse Palestinians? How dare I question the morality of the Israeli Government! How dare I point out the racism and bigotry of the Israeli leadership when they praise the fact that their policies are keeping the birth rates of Palestinians down. I am an anti-semite when I point out left leaning politicians in Israel declaring that Israel's policies were akin to the 1940's in Alabama.. Because to criticise the policies of the leadership and Government of Israel automatically renders one a fucking anti-semite. You are as bad as the Israeli Government calling Governments and countries that recognise Palestinians and Palestine and granting them diplomatic status as being anti-semitic. It is called grasping at straws and supporters of the Israeli regime tend to call anyone who dares question the leadership about their policies, an anti-semitic and if the person asking the questions or criticising the Government happens to be Jewish, then they are branded a self hating Jew.. Most of the writers at Haaretz are often termed as such, because they ask the same questions I ask..

    I brought up the Roma and Rwanda because you seem to be fixated on only one genocide and one Holocaust. As you said yourself, Rwanda was a genocide if "I said so"..

    Are you aware, for example, that many people, Jews and non-Jews alike consider the treatment of Palestinians as a genocide? Would you agree that the policies of the Israeli leadership is tantamount to apartheid and has been termed as such by the UN and other organisations around the world? Would you agree that it is apartheid?

    Don't you find, the refusal to recognise them as a people, forcing them to carry identity cards that show they aren't Jewish and the control measures placed upon them falls within the definition of Apartheid? One of the lasting memories of apartheid in South Africa was the anger at the recognition of the Blacks as being a people and worthy of recognition..

    But instead of discussing that, which was brought up earlier and linked with quotes, you come out by calling me an anti-semite.

    Could you be more pathetic?

    Who is this "we"?

    You're trying to educate me on why Israel should be fearful of its neighbours?

    I've already dealt with that.

    Now tell me why the Holocaust has to come into a thread about Brazil recognising Palestine? Tell me why you have barely batted an eyelid at Israel's response to such actions and how and why you have barely said boo about Israel's reaction to Ireland declaring the Palestinian's mission in Ireland as an embassy, which denotes recognition of a Palestine State? Tell me why you haven't said boo about how Israel deems such recognition as being anti-semitic? Or do you agree it is?
     
    Bells, Jan 26, 2011
    #330
  14. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Wow. A whole new demented world!

    Proof and context, please. Also, where in this thread did I describe it with the word "understandable"? Where have I used it in that way?

    Funnily, but this is a problem in comprehension you've had before:

    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2545785&highlight=understandable#post2545785

    Hey, you're starting to get it. So if I can't mean that this context is important in terms of international balance, what could I possibly be referring to? Hmm.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution

    This is the essence of it.

    Again: proof and context of my use of this phrase? As you're learning, context is everything.

    Ok. So demand it of yourself, rather than trying to pretend I did it.

    Your syntax broke down here so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

    Excuse me: it was you that injected the Holocaust into our debate, not I. So ask yourself what shit it is that you're coming out with.

    Wow. I thought you'd gone about as far off the rails as it was possible to go, but these two things are not even related. Where do you come up with this crap.

    Except that I do substantiate (I just punking you and Tiassa on this very thread about Pakistan), I actually care whether any country violates human rights and not just Israel (unlike you), and on that basis you're the bigot and not I, poor baby.

    No, I think you're a quiet racist because of the way you turn every argument into something it's not in order to avoid widening your perception. But that's just my position, Bells. No reason to throw a fit.

    Which, besides being erroneous, is related to my arguments how?

    Yes, I am. (Incidentally, before you fly too hard off the rails, keep in mind that this is argument from popularity.)

    I believe so, yes. Will you now say the same for any other similar case, or are you only interested in pillorying Israelis for their crimes? Because that's your MO, and it sounds a little bigoted if you ask me. I asked Sam about her critiques - or lack thereof - of other nations and got almost total avoidance. You've been too afraid to say anything about it either. If you're calling me bigoted, then you've earned the same label. Sorry.

    Well, more than a few people, Bells. A number of people have mentioned it to me so far, this habit of yours.

    I don't know. Why did you inject it into our conversation, Bells? Because you did. I didn't bring it up with you.
     
    GeoffP, Jan 26, 2011
    #331
  15. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, and - again - if you could provide some real proof about the 'but', that would be great.
     
    GeoffP, Jan 26, 2011
    #332
  16. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    I'll get back to the rest of your post when I get back from my specialist tomorrow. I am a tad tired and I have a long and painful day ahead tomorrow, so I need to get some sleep. But I will point out one thing..

    I did not bring up the spectre of the Holocaust in this thread Geoff. You did. So stop lying.


    I don't know Geoff, you tell me..

    You brought it up. Not me.

    Ermm no, you did. So stop lying.

    I understand you have this pathological need to 'win', but remember, this is the internet and to try to win on the internet would make you a retard.

    As for your caring.. I have yet to see proof of this. You couldn't even be sure if Rwanda was a genocide. You ummed and aahed over it for a while. YOu wrung your hands about it for a bit.. You then came out with some bullshit excuse as to why the US didn't respond - transport I believe? Or along those lines..

    But apparently that is caring? Righteo..

    From you, that is hilarious.

    I am a quiet racist for saying that Israel has no right to deny Palestinians their rights and their autonomy? Okay then. I'll buy being a racist for that cause.

    We'll just forget your hysterical fits about the NY Mosque and the teddy bear. That wasn't racist.. Demanding the Government forbids American Arabs from building a mosque in NY - citing it's Ground Zero - even when it wasn't and trying to claim moral supremacy about its position there, blah blah blah from you.. That wasn't racist at all.

    But demanding equal rights for Palestinians is racist? Okay then!

    Further proof of your blinkers and bigotry.

    Oh dear..

    What are we to do with you Geoff?

    You don't agree that their policy of segregation, ID cards, ban on movement and use of roads and public transport, policies that target them specifically and Government officials celebrating the lowering of their birth rates, the abject discrimination in education, employment and housing, not to mention medical care, as well as marriage laws, etc.. you don't consider that apartheid? You consider it to be an "argument from popularity"?

    Do you doubt that I would say it?

    I believe I have made my feelings on such issues very clear, regardless of the State in question.

    But to you, in your world, I am a bigot and an anti-semite for criticising the Israeli leadership - I am not saying that isn't being discussed in Israeli papers. Do you consider the likes of Bradley Burston an anti-semite and bigot?

    Obsess much?

    You could all form a support group.

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    You brought it up in the thread, I responded.

    And you were quick to remind me that drawing a red cross on someone's helmet so that snipers could pick them out and shoot them quickly was not as bad as other cases - implying the Star of David that the Nazi's forced Jews to wear (which you pointed out very succinctly previously in the thread - when you raised the spectre of the Holocaust)..

    So do not lie.

    Anyway, I'm going to bed. Need to get some rest for tomorrow. I'll get to the rest of it when I can be bothered to really.
     
    Bells, Jan 26, 2011
    #333
  17. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Aussie Screech

    I wish you well in your day tomorrow.

    My apologies, but the Holocaust figures quite largely in the issue of identifying people by religion. I thought it important to remind Tiassa in case he dismissed its importance suddenly; point being, that it's a very dangerous thing for Pakistan to start singling out non-Muslim Pakistanis, while also reminding him that Israel is far from the only offender, as one would conclude from listening to you two.

    However, YOU were the one trying to bring the Holocaust into the discussion in an abortive attempt to link a long-ago discussion on history informing modern Israeli psychology, in an aspect it had nothing to do with. You attempted to tie a side-point about the perils of public identification with some kind of bizarre thesis about the Holocaust making it moral open-season on Palestinians. I think you're trying to channel the KKK or something; later on you took this idea off in an entirely new crazy line of reasoning that actually hurts my head to think about.

    So stop trying to distort the thread. Look, if you don't understand what's going on: ask. I won't take the piss out of you. I won't beat on you. I'll probably even be nice to you. Just ask. K?

    Oh, for fuck's sake. UNDERSTANDING THEIR PSYCHOLOGY. Not making Israeli violations of international law understandable. Fuck.

    I do indeed have a pathological need to win. Sowwy. But the problem is also that retards keep accusing me of things I don't believe, and haven't done.

    You again fail to comprehend the difference between my excuse and theirs. You also deliberately avoided my comment that I could not decide whether it was a "Holocaust" or a "Genocide", technically. I've mentioned this many, many times. Yet you troll right over it. If you think that's belittling it, explain how. If you can. But you can't, can you? You know full well that it wasn't anything like you present, but you don't dare admit that, do you? So just answer a simple question, Bells: which is worse:a "Rwandan Holocaust", or a "Rwandan Genocide"? If you don't get what I mean, then ask me.

    Sorry - which race did I insult?

    A lie.

    In the absence of any meaningful counter-definition from you. But don't try to have a discussion about it, Bells. Just start screeching. That'll solve everything.

    Hey, you got a point right.

    Well, it isn't. Making you wear a distinguishing helmet badge under the supposition that if you tried to do something (and one is forced to disgustedly wonder what it is that the Israelis thought the Palestinian workers were going to "do", really) is not the same as making you wear a badge for ongoing, permanent identification for oppression and maltreatment, killing you if you fail to wear it, using it to help identify you for rounding up and extermination. The latter is, objectively, quantitatively worse. :shrug: If you want to argue that it's part and parcel of some larger issue - which you probably didn't and I'm not bothered to go search through your babble now - then you might have a case.

    I just deleted the rest of your response, because none of it made any real sense, and because most of it was trolling over ground that's already been gone over before.

    But let me know about the "but".
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
    GeoffP, Jan 26, 2011
    #334
  18. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    S.A.M., Jan 26, 2011
    #335
  19. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    GeoffP, Jan 26, 2011
    #336
  20. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed, Hasbara international. I wonder why people in Gaza pray to be released from the Jews. Hmm truly, racism. Nothing to do with their kids anuses being poked with plastic pipes, the "diet" they've been on for the last six years, the bombings subjected to on a daily basis and the occupation of the last 60 years.

    NO they hate Jews! Those effing racists. If it was Christians doing the same thing, probably they would be singing their praises. Kinda like you sing the praises of the people who did 9/11 and keep telling us about Iran and Pakistan and all those muslims in threads about Palestine.

    No the only "understanding" you extend is to those settlers who are no different really from all the settlers that have been pouring into Palestine for 60 years, with their mythical land lease and their pseudoreligious entitlement, waving the holocaust in everyones face, when the truth is that Jabotinsky started the Jewish legion in 1917 way before the first concentration camp was set up by the Germans.

    Why shouldn't the victims of the Jewish state hate the Jews? Everyone is allowed to hate their oppressors. Rape victims hate their rapists, holocaust victims hate the Nazis - enough to hunt them down and kill them. The victims of apartheid can hardly love the racists who have dispossessed them. But surprisingly, you can only find a few Palestinians who express those sentiments. Its surprising that not all of them feel the same resentment to the people who have made their lives a living hell. If they called themselves the Yahoo state, the Palestinians would resent the Yahoos, its Israel that defines itself as the Yahudi state, so its not surprising that people in Gaza pray for deliverance from Jews. And you actually object to them praying for deliverance. During the Gaza massacre! Hilarious.

    Why don't you see the whole documentary, since you are such a believer in context? Hmm?

    http://toshootanelephant.com/node/169

    How many Jews embraced the Nazis?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/22/books/22doctor.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
    S.A.M., Jan 26, 2011
    #337
  21. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder if Bells will notice your reply. I wonder what she will think of it, or write of it.

    You know: in the context of "understanding" that we've built up and all.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    GeoffP, Jan 26, 2011
    #338
  22. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Don't worry Geoff. I am sure that Bells is well able to separate Gazans under fire from affluent Jews with bulldozers and recognise which one is the racist. Perhaps a ball park comparison between how many Palestinians dispossessed/killed/tortured by Jews vs how many Jews prayed out of existence by Palestinians in Gaza

    Just out of curiosity, do you consider Jews who hunted and killed Nazis as racists? What about the ANC? Were they racists for their violence against the apartheid state? Perhaps you could enlighten us on your views on the black slaves who were racists against white slave owners as well. And you may not know this, but one of the slogans of the Indian national movement was Angrez Murdabad, i.e. death to the English. Perhaps you could tell us if that was the racism of Indians towards the British.

    Its really interesting, this view of your upside down world
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
    S.A.M., Jan 26, 2011
    #339
  23. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    No: I was just wondering how you were going to make the hatred of the Palestinians you describe above "understandable" and all. But please carry on: this is fascinating.
     
    GeoffP, Jan 26, 2011
    #340
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