Are You A Quantum Creationist?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Eugene Shubert, Aug 13, 2015.

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  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Again, not in the same vane as you obviously preach.
    http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginning
    extract:
    Q:Some people claim your work proves the existence of God, or at least of a divine moment of creation. What do you think?

    A:I don’t think it proves anything one way or another.

    I went to a meeting of some theologians and cosmologists. Basically, I realized these theologians have the same problem with God. What was He doing before He created the universe? Why did He suddenly decide to create the universe?
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Here's a more popular scenario......
    https://www.astrosociety.org/publications/a-universe-from-nothing/

    A Universe from Nothing
    by Alexei V. Filippenko and Jay M. Pasachoff

    Insights from modern physics suggest that our wondrous universe may be the ultimate free lunch.

    Adapted from The Cosmos: Astronomy in the New Millennium, 1st edition, by Jay M. Pasachoff and Alex Filippenko, © 2001. Reprinted with permission of Brooks/Cole, an imprint of the Wadsworth Group, a division of Thomson Learning.

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    Courtesy of AURA/NOAO/NSF.

    In the inflationary theory, matter, antimatter, and photons were produced by the energy of the false vacuum, which was released following the phase transition. All of these particles consist of positive energy. This energy, however, is exactly balanced by the negative gravitational energy of everything pulling on everything else. In other words, the total energy of the universe is zero! It is remarkable that the universe consists of essentially nothing, but (fortunately for us) in positive and negative parts. You can easily see that gravity is associated with negative energy: If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero.

    The idea of a zero-energy universe, together with inflation, suggests that all one needs is just a tiny bit of energy to get the whole thing started (that is, a tiny volume of energy in which inflation can begin). The universe then experiences inflationary expansion, but without creating net energy.

    What produced the energy before inflation? This is perhaps the ultimate question. As crazy as it might seem, the energy may have come out of nothing! The meaning of “nothing” is somewhat ambiguous here. It might be the vacuum in some pre-existing space and time, or it could be nothing at all – that is, all concepts of space and time were created with the universe itself.

    Quantum theory, and specifically Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, provide a natural explanation for how that energy may have come out of nothing. Throughout the universe, particles and antiparticles spontaneously form and quickly annihilate each other without violating the law of energy conservation. These spontaneous births and deaths of so-called “virtual particle” pairs are known as “quantum fluctuations.” Indeed, laboratory experiments have proven that quantum fluctuations occur everywhere, all the time. Virtual particle pairs (such as electrons and positrons) directly affect the energy levels of atoms, and the predicted energy levels disagree with the experimentally measured levels unless quantum fluctuations are taken into account.

    Perhaps many quantum fluctuations occurred before the birth of our universe. Most of them quickly disappeared. But one lived sufficiently long and had the right conditions for inflation to have been initiated. Thereafter, the original tiny volume inflated by an enormous factor, and our macroscopic universe was born. The original particle-antiparticle pair (or pairs) may have subsequently annihilated each other – but even if they didn’t, the violation of energy conservation would be minuscule, not large enough to be measurable.

    If this admittedly speculative hypothesis is correct, then the answer to the ultimate question is that the universe is the ultimate free lunch! It came from nothing, and its total energy is zero, but it nevertheless has incredible structure and complexity. There could even be many other such universes, spatially distinct from ours.
     
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  5. Eugene Shubert Valued Senior Member

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    And how does this refute what I've written?
     
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  7. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    As flawed as many here may see this discussion, this is already just WAY better than anything W L Craig ever debated.

    I had never thought of quantum physics as anything akin to something like a creation mythology, but there actually are similarities.

    Very astute, Eugene Shubert! Thanks.
     
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  8. Eugene Shubert Valued Senior Member

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    You're very welcome.
     
  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    It refutes your inference and total intellectual dishonesty.
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Very astute in deed coming from the forum White Knight for the down trodden!

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    http://www.everythingimportant.org/SDA/viewtopic.php?t=34

    Eugene Shubert's three-week, God-given course on the proper exegesis of Scripture
    Postby Eugene Shubert » Sat Apr 13, 2002 10:03 pm

    Everything Important About Eugene Shubert

    I was asked in the Picnic Area to say a little bit about myself and to state my motive for creating this forum. Also, just yesterday, I received an email asking the same thing. The email also wanted me to state my credentials.

    Truth doesn’t speak for itself any more. One must list their credentials. Actually, that’s a really good idea. I wish to teach new light on the book of Revelation, then Daniel and it would be a good idea for me to state my qualifications.

    There are two different kinds of credentials that I might refer too. There is recognition granted by worldly institutions, rank in society derived from popularity, fame and the power of wealth. There is also a recognition that is granted by the church. Do all the priests and elders approve of you? Because heavenly credentials outweigh the recognition granted by the world, I will give considerable weight to the credentials given me by God.

    Who Am I?

    I am my theology. I am the sum total of my experiences, aspirations, emotions, capacities, faith etc. (That covers a lot of ground). I’ll try to cover my most interesting experiences, like when I was once admonished by an angel in a dream.

    I realize that my entire life has been a continual failure to honor my Savior but the blessings that God gave me are really unbelievable. By faith and prophetic understanding, I suppose that I have been appointed to bring about the fulfillment of William Miller’s dream (See, Early Writings of Ellen G. White p. 81-83). In the dream William Miller is vindicated. —It didn’t happen to William Miller. The second half of the dream foretells an experience fulfilled largely by me.

    It’s amazing how God can easily lead people to a profound understanding of Scripture. At the beginning of his investigation of the Bible, William Miller was a deist. At the end of two years, William Miller had a startling message for the world (The Great Controversy [1888 edition] p. 329). There is only one way to explain this. Ellen White makes these comments: “God sent His angel to move upon the heart of a farmer who had not believed the Bible, to lead him to search the prophecies. Angels of God repeatedly visited that chosen one.” — “Angels of Heaven were guiding his mind, and opening to his understanding prophecies which had ever been dark to God’s people.”

    There was also a natural process at work in the way Miller received his understanding. “With intense interest he studied the books of Daniel and the Revelation.” Compare that natural process to when the natural process is supernaturally directed and speeded up, as in this one instance for the Apostle Paul:

    “In that hour of heavenly illumination, the mind of Saul acted with remarkable rapidity. The prophetic records of Holy Writ were opened to his understanding. He saw that the rejection of Jesus by the Jews, his crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, had been foretold by the prophets, and proved him to be the promised Messiah. The sermon of Stephen was brought forcibly to his mind. Now Saul knew that the martyr had indeed beheld ‘the glory of God,’ when he had ‘looked up steadfastly into heaven,’ and had said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.’ Those words that the priests had pronounced blasphemy, now appeared to Saul as truth.” —Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 03-16-11.

    I believe that I had a revelatory experience somewhat comparable to the Apostle Paul and William Miller. God gave me an overpowering crash-course with a continuous flood of awesome insight and understanding of Daniel and Revelation in a span of 3 short weeks.

    I was a typically dumb Seventh-day Adventist at the time. It was at the end of my first year as a mathematics student at the University of California, San Diego (1982). It was a Friday; I just finished my last class and finals week was coming up. I don’t recall the exact state of my mind that day but there was something that made me go to bed at 7PM. (Possibly it was discouragement). I woke up at 1AM with an insatiable desire to read Daniel 11. I had it in my mind that I was going to take the text exactly for what it says.

    I couldn’t stop for three whole weeks. Every waking moment I was studying Daniel and then Revelation—even when I was eating. It was impossible for me to put the Bible down and study for final exams. (I did take the final examinations. They were not a problem. I got all A’s that quarter). At the end of those 3 incredible weeks I had “all of Daniel and Revelation figured out.”

    Permit me to insert some relevant biographical material here. I started sharing my understanding with others. Those closest to me at the time accepted my interpretations almost immediately.

    There was one Pastor C who studied my view and told me “Wow, it answers everything. I’m going to write a letter of endorsement to the Conference president and tell him that the church ought to look into this.” And he really meant it.

    My brother Bob knew Pastor C really well. My brother was always making a remark about Pastor C—how cagey he was. I did get an endorsement from the pastor but not the kind I was expecting. I asked the pastor how his letter of recommendation was coming along. He said he was studying and coming up with objections to my view. We were neighborly. The pastor asked me to give him a ride to a pizza parlor where his son was working, to pick him up. As we started to drive back I asked Pastor C what his objections were (to my new light). Pastor C starting “speaking in tongues.” Not the usual gibberish you hear on TV. Every word was English but it would be impossible, I think, to put any two of his consecutive words side by side in an ordinary sentence! He was uttering meaningless strings of random words. I turned to him as if in a normal response and said, “You don’t have any objections, do you?” He said “no.” That was in Southern Calif. I don’t remember the date.

    In 1988 I moved to Texas to go to graduate school at the University of Texas at Dallas. On the evening of December 15, 1988 I was working on a letter to Dr. Bill Shea. I had engaged him in an exchange previously over my book on prophecy and I had enough. I was trying to answer his response to my page 43-44. I was looking for words that say tactfully and in a profoundly Christ-like way that his thinking was stupid and chaotic and definitely inferior to the logic of children. After wasting much time trying to figure out how I could engineer such a useful piece of literary wit, I went to bed. It was late and I was very tired. I slept well all through the night and into the morning. I had this dream around 6AM:

    I was on the road and in the backseat of a beautiful red convertible. I was unable to see the driver. My attention was mostly preoccupied with how dazzling white the seat I was sitting on was. I also knew that there was a white horse with me in the backseat. I was on the left side. He was sitting on the right. We soon pulled off the road into a gas station as if we needed to ask directions to make sure we were going in the right direction. Pastor C, who enjoys discussion and was riding up front, got out to talk with the attendant of the station. I was waiting a long time. My attention then shifted to an adjacent lot where a horse was standing in tall grass. I particularly noticed how the grass hid the horse’s 4 legs so that they couldn’t be seen. The next thing I knew, the horse was in a corral and I was petting him and telling him what a beautiful horse he was. I had never seen such a beautiful animal. I was truly dumbstruck by the beauty of this beast. I couldn’t understand the attraction; I don’t even have an ordinary interest in horses or pets. Then I heard Pastor C insult the attendant for saying something stupid. The horse was then right in front of me and was quickly transforming into an angel. I wanted to know what an angel looks like so I was watching intently. The angel was angry. He quickly concealed his face before I could discern what an angelic face looks like. He then began to speak. As he spoke the appearance of the angel began to morph in a new way. It felt as if God was appearing to me from right behind the angel or was speaking directly through him: “The purpose of an argument is....” I reacted with a woe in my mind that is indescribable. The bolt of the theophany subsided; I was listening to the instruction that I was receiving. “The purpose of an argument is....” but each word that followed was so rich in meaning that I had to go word by word in a lengthy pause to soak up the deep and awesome meaning that each of these words had. I could understand each word separately but not in the sentence. I tried to understand what the angel was saying but I couldn’t think fast enough to follow along. I gave up on trying to understand all but the first sentence. In my struggle to understand what all the words meant collectively in just the first sentence I woke up trying to remember all the words.
     
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  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And of course why this was eventually moved to pseudoscience.

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  12. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Is that a quote from the video? What is the timestamp?
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No that's from tashja's E-Mail reply here.......
    post 111
     
  14. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    I researched him before responding paddoboy. I know who he is.

    It is not a good idea to disparage science just because it comes from someone who also has faith, or a lack thereof. Gregor Mendel, the founder of genetics was a man of faith. So were Galileo and Newton. For some, faith is actually a motivation to explore whatever science may tell them about their creator(s). For some without faith, other motivations may be substituted, but whatever the motivation, as long as one does science according to all of the rules, I see no real problem.

    William Lane Craig is too indoctrinated in his faith to approach science any closer than philosophy, but I see no such problem with the individual who did the OP here.

    I hate the book of Revelations and the way it is used to promote prophesy. All of the prophesies contained within it came to pass a very long time ago, and anyone religiously obsessed or bent on facilitating the repeat of any part of it is a fool. Nothing like it even belongs in a religious text as an element of any faith. There is really nothing "dumb" about the Seventh Day Adventist church, except for how they abuse the book of Revelations, and ignore false prophesies of their leadership that go unfulfilled. YEC is usually part of their religious teachings.
     
  15. Eugene Shubert Valued Senior Member

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    I say again: I am a former Seventh-day Adventist and now a Confessing Millerite Adventist.
     
  16. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    You can never convince religious fanatics or the insane that they're wrong, and in Shubert we've got both. After 7 pages it's basically the same posts over and over. I'm through with this thread. For those who stay, have fun arguing with the crazy guy.
     
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  17. Eugene Shubert Valued Senior Member

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    What makes it especially good is that Professor Alexander Vilenkin and Professor David Z. Albert both confessed to being quantum creationists, if the post by tashja is to be believed.
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I'll disparge any YEC or any other religious troll that sees fit to deride science and the scientific method in place of their nonsense.
    I have nothing against any religious folk. I've been married for 40 years to a deeply religious Christain in the true sense of the word, woman.
    And your list of religious scientists failed to mention George LaMaitre.
    As long as they keep there place, I'm OK with them.
    Nice anyway to see this thread moved from science to speudoscience.
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Wrong, misleading, and certainly not the way you intended.
    Remember my Mum would tell me when I was a little Nipper, telling liars makes little baby Jesus cry.
    Poor little bugger is bawling his eyes out having to listen to you!
     
  20. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Ahh, ok. I'm not inclined to accept unverifiable quotes at face value.
     
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Wise man.

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  22. Eugene Shubert Valued Senior Member

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    I'd be delighted to amend my definition to be in perfect conformity with Professor Vilenkin's exact words. Note that I only need to emphasize that by nothingness I mean nothing physical, no quantum foam, not even spacetime.
     
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  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    See post 122:
    Professor Vilenkin's meaning/Interpretation do not suggest any magic pixie in the sky as your own Interpretation/meaning and your reasons for posting this thread, in science of all places.
    Thank Christ that has now been rectified.
     
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