Are Women Feminizing Men?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by seagypsy, Aug 17, 2012.

  1. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    I've been thinking about this, and
    [tin-foil-hat alert!] it seems to me the most obvious reason for trying to reduce American males to the lizard-brain functions (by which i mean, appealing to the basest instincts) is to make them amenable to bad politics and worse economics: attack whomever they're pointed at; kiss up, kick down; accept lower wages and spend it on whatever gadget, snack or spectacle is offered...

    But that's not the most sinister aspect. The worst thing is in the opening question. By raising it, the F(orces)O(f)E(vil) seek to turn men against women. You know how an abuser systematically isolates his victim from family and friends? The FOE is trying to alienate men from their partners, their allies, support group and cheering section; the people who care most about them: their wives, sisters and mothers.[/tin-foil-hat alert]

    Obviously, offering women an image of themselves that's pleasing - if utterly false - and an image of men as stupid, dishonest and selfish is serving the same purpose: Divide and manipulate.
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    When it comes to gender issues I'm a firm believer in Individualism. A person should be what ever they want to/physically can be and should not be forced to abide by gender norms or be punished for bending or breaking gender stereotypes. Sure on average men and women are physically and mentally different, but I see no reason why we we must all try to be the average. There is a large amount of variance both physically and mentally about those gender norms and this variance is absolute. For example even in the most fundamental separation between men and women: "men have penises and women have vaginas" there is variance: people who are born intersex (aka "hermaphrodites") with "ambiguous genitalia", less extreme there are women with huge nearly penis like clits and men with the highly unfortunate condition of "Micropenis" so even the most fundamental separation of men and women has variance. This variance between the sexes is likely even greater on less quantifiable and purely psychological measures such as "favourite color", "cooking skill", "child rearing aptitude" or even "Enjoying spa treatments" (my father loves the latter). Ultimately we must ask is such variance harmful to society? So far I don't see any evidence of it being so, so why should we enforce in anyway gender norms?
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    I think it is an issue if any parent leaves their child like that and gets in their car and drives off, leaving not just the child, but their partner in a theater with a crazed gunman. I'm sorry, but who does that?

    The true heroes in that family's situation in that theater was the mother, who managed to drag her son to her and shield him and their daughter with her body as she lay injured, and the stranger (19 year old man) who then dragged all of them out of the theater, while shielding her and her two children with his body (he had apparently noticed that she had been injured in the shooting) and as a result of his bravery, he was shot in the leg. The children's father was, by that point, in his car driving to God knows where, having left his two children and his partner in that theater.

    As I said above, I would say it is an issue for any parent who abandons their child and drives off (especially in a case where said children are in a theater with a crazy gunman).. I mean he didn't even have the decency to wait outside the theater..


    When the violence began the family quickly got on the floor, each parent had one child. The infant was crying and the father felt as though the crying would draw attention to him from the shooter so he jumped over the seats with the baby. Jamie tried to keep the baby low on the floor and he kept crying so he waited for an opportunity to run and he left. He fucking left his fiancee and his two children in the movie theater with a maniac that was shooting people. While Patricia lie on the floor with her daughter suffering from being hit with shrapnel in her leg, she sees her son lying on the floor near the stairs, alone. At that point she reached out and grabbed her son and pulled him close to her. When the shooting stopped, she grabbed both children and ran outside. It was only then, when she was outside that she looked at her leg that had been injured.

    Not only did he just leave the theater, he left the premises. He didn't wait around to see if they would come out alive. He didn't even wait to see if they were injured so that he could accompany them to the hospital. He didn't even wait to tell the police that they were in the theater so that they could be searched for. He was only reunited with his family when his fiancee called him from someone's phone and he drove back to the theater. Let me repeat that. He was only reunited with his family when his fiancee called him from someone's phone and he drove back to the theater. Did you hear me people? This idiot left his family in that theatre, got in his car and drove to who knows where. Did he go home? Did he go to a bar? Did he go out for a bit to eat? Wherever he went, it was not the right place to be.


    I'm sorry, but to me, this guy is just a pathetic excuse for a parent.
     
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  7. Gregg Schaffter Registered Member

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    Well at that point in time there should have been a divorce considering how disloyal the husband was. I mean if the husband runs like that, it is an expectation in the future.
     
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Nice bells, nice judging someone in a situation I highly doubt you have ever been in. Do you remember Adam who used to post here? He was a former RAN sailor so well trainer to kill and defend himself and yet his comment about the monash Uni shooting was "if I was there I would have been hiding under the table". No one knows how they are going to react when faced with a life threatening situation, fact that he ran doesn't make him "a pathetic excuse for a man" it makes him human under the influence of a fight, FLIGHT or freeze response and to be honest I can relate. First time I saw someone killed I ran away when I saw that the guys spine had been ripped out his body, I panicked. I wasn't in any danger, it was a motorcycle crash but it was so traumatic I couldn't help but run away and it took counciling from the TAC before I could even go back to the same street it happen on.

    Don't be so quick to judge when your not in the situation
     
  9. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    1,784
    I agree. I'm a mother, too, but what if it was only your partner, no children? Would a male be a viewed as a coward for abandoning his female partner? If the situation was reversed, would the female be viewed as a coward, as well?

    They weren’t married. He proposed after the incident. Numerous websites were publicly pleading with her to not marry him.

    Well, another young man responded instinctively and actually saved her.

    [video=youtube;6Hlcth2Vvp0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hlcth2Vvp0&feature=player_embedded#! [/video]
     
  10. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    1,153
    did i click the link wrong? The link I saw took me to a story about men being discriminated against by major airlines. Telling them they have to trade seats with a woman if an unaccompanied minor is sitting next to him, because airline policy does not allow men to sit next to unaccompanied children. I didn't see the story about abandoning family in the theater.
     
  11. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    That was just another example of male stereotyping. Were you unable see the embedded video? Here's the link.
     
  12. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    1,153
    oh wow, now I've seen the video. My kneejerk reaction is the same as bells. but he seems very remorseful and I can't say how I would have reacted in that situation. Though I can't imagine leaving my children in that kind of environment. I was a bus station in memphis last week with my two teen boys in the middle of the night. Was a megabus thing. Our bus was broke down and we were waiting for a replacement bus. In the mean time there was a highspeed chase in the area that kept circling the transit station we were at. Locked outside since it was closed and megabus doesnt operate actual terminals. Anyway the suspect circled around again and crashed his car into the line we were standing in. Luckily everyone jumped out of the way in time but I was all over my boys worried that the guy may have a gun as he got out of his car and ran. My boys are bigger than me and i still was on them shielding them just in case. Not quite the same situation but I still can't imagine a parent leaving children like that. if it were a matter of leaving one child in a dangerous situation to get the other i can see a choice having to be made. but it is really hard not to judge him in spite of his apparent remorse.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    24,102
    Well yes it would. Who leaves their loved one in that kind of situation and actually runs out of the theater and then gets in their car and drives off?

    He didn't even call the police, or do anything. He got in his car and drove off and left them there. Even if it was just her. You don't leave your loved one's behind like that.

    It's appalling.

    And the reason he stated as to why he left his 4 month old son behind? The child was crying and he was scared that the child's cries would draw the gunman's attention to him, so he ran and left the child behind. A complete stranger saw her struggling with the children and instinctively went to her aid and shielded her and her children with his body. While the children's father ran and left the theater and drove off, because he didn't want his child's cries to lead the gunman to him. That's just cold.
     
  14. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    You are acting like fight or flight is a rational concidered choice. You think I CHOSE to run away from the guy bleeding out in front of me? Hell no the rational choice was that "I knew my first aid" and that I could run TO him to help. The fact I fled after I saw his spine in 2 pieces wasn't rational at all, it wasn't what I CHOSE to do, it was something I hated myself for doing the moment I left, it was something I couldn't even understand doing until the TAC shrink explained it to me. It was an automatic reaction to protect myself from a trumatic experience and as I said my life wasn't even in danger then. You think solders go through so much basic training only so they can shoot straight? It's to reprogram there natural instincts to run away and protect thselves so they can do what they are trained for.

    Oh and BTW it's only in the last few centuries where children have always been put ahead of there parents and only because we have reduced our birth rates. Look at other animals and it's quite normal for a mother to leave the kids to die to save themselves or even to EAT the kids if both are staving. Look at where our birth rates and death were WAY higher and see if you get the same desire to protect the child at all costs. It's not been that long since then to have had all our natural instincts reprogramed
     
  15. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Bells when were you last under fire in that sort of situation?
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    A guy, hearing gun shots and realising his child's cries could draw the attention of a gunman, ran and left his crying baby and his partner and other child in a dark theater, got into his car and drove off. He didn't call the police. He didn't wait outside to even see if they got out. He drove off and left them there.

    I'm sorry, but no. The fact that he got into his car and drove off. No.

    As a parent.. No.


    You mean like the time I nearly bled to death while in labour and I begged the doctors to let me die and to just save my son? Or the time when a guy with a knife came and knocked on my door in the middle of the night because I had provided his battered spouse with free legal advice and she went back home from the shelter she had run to and given him my name and he found me, whereupon I body blocked him at the door and talked to him while my husband got our children out of the house via the back door and over the fence before calling the police? That kind of thing?

    I could have just run. I did not. I stood there and waited until they were safe and I kept talking to the guy until the police arrived. How about when one day, I was in the front yard with my children and police swarmed everywhere and said that a suspected armed robber had run into the area and I shielded my children with my body as I rushed them inside, just in case..

    I'm sorry Asguard, but he not only left his 4 month old lying on the ground in a crowded theater with a crazed gunman and people were running all over the place, trying to escape (the child could have been trampled to death in that theater, but he left that child there because he did not want to die as he thought the baby's cries would draw attention to him from the gunman ("I don't want to die".. watch the video).. He left his 4 month old baby behind in that situation, along with his partner and 4 year old girl, because he did not want to die. In fact, he didn't want to die so much that he got in his car and escaped completely and his partner had to call him from someone else's phone. He didn't have the god damn decency to wait outside and see if they got out.

    It was a complete stranger who saved his injured partner and his children.

    It takes a cold person do something like that.

    I get the shock and I get the fact people freak out in such situations. But he didn't freak out. He calculated the risk to his life and he did what he did to save himself first. And that is inexcusable as far as I am concerned. We aren't animals in as much as we'd eat our own children or kill them to ensure our own safety. Look at the natural disasters around the world and there is always one prevailing theme. People going out of their way to save their children. Usually at the cost of their own lives. This guy left his child on the steps in a crowded theater, with people rushing out of it in panic, because he did not want to die.

    To tie this back to the topic. Had he had no children and he left his partner behind, my reaction would have been the same and had his partner done the same thing, I would react the same.
     
  17. Dr Mabuse Percipient Thaumaturgist Registered Senior Member

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  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    To take the last bit of your post where you say if it was just him and his partner and his partner left him to die she would be pathetic. You concider all the women on the titanic who left there husbands to die pathetic?

    And BTW we ARE just animals, look at surviaval statistics from boat crashes, paticually the stats for civilians vs crew, insted of the crew staying to help as is there job and there training THEY generally bail and children suffer the highest casualty rates. When your backs against the wall most people will go everyone for themselves. Thats why those who don't get statues and the Victoria cross, because they are the exception, not the rule. It takes years of training to overcome those instincts and feel like your incontrol of a situation enough to actually walk into those situations (I mean firefighters walking into burning buildings, surf lifesavers jumping into a rip to save a drowning person etc). We are built to put ourselves first because it's a biological imperative, biologically you can replace your partner, you can have more children but there is only one YOU so the base reactions protect YOU. Being overwhelmed by that doesn't make someone pathetic, it makes them human. The pathetic one was the gunman not the victims. As the counciler said to me "everyone has a breaking point, what one person would react to cerebrally another will with base fear". I know a solder who would take on the whole Taliban by himself but LITTERALLY runs away from spiders. I found it quite odd because I love spiders and snakes and I will assess there danger to me and then let them crawl all over me. Another friend couldn't climb a ladder to save ANYONE, the heights terrify him. I'm not going to judge your stories because I'm not you, I had a guy armed with a knife running at me and it just excited me because I knew the cops around me and the ambos training me were there to keep me safe, I was fascinated to be stuck in the seige not scared, yet to see a man killed right in front of me made me flee and a tight hug will make me rip your face off even if it was my mum holding me, I can't control it. Shes not going to hurt me but the feeling of being restrained has ALWAYS made me panic.

    You say it was a choice, to me it sounds more like he is trying to understand his own actions after the fact, it happened, it's a horrible thing but unless you were in that moment, inside his head and can GARENTIEE it was a cerebral response try a little compassion. Your own post shows it was at best "temporary insanity", of he just wanted to save himself why did he get in the car and drive away? To buy life insurance? No sounds more like the reason I couldn't walk up Swanson street, oh and BTW do you think I didn't have "logical" reasons I told myself why a week latter I wouldnt go there? I made up all sorts of excuses but the fact was it was effectively a panic attack. You sound like major whatshisname from mash who called all "shell shocked" solders "cowards"
     
  19. Gregg Schaffter Registered Member

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    In this argument here, you could argue that some species leave their offspring when a threat comes in, such as the lionesses when their herd gets defeated and the previous offspring just get killed off, but a lot of species react to defend their offspring, so for an animal to run away from a fight to defend their offspring is quite rare to happen, in fact I haven't seen any besides the lion species to have done this. Comparing us to animals would just in fact back up the idea that this guy was a coward.
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    24,102
    You are applying the Titanic to this?

    The Titanic survivors would have numbered a lot more if the evacuation order had been made a lot earlier. And no, in that instance, those who died were heroes, because they ensured that their loved one's were safe. Do you understand the difference here and what happened on the Titanic before she sank?


    And yet, literally on a daily basis, we hear of people who put their lives on the line to protect and save others. That is also a basic human instinct. Look at the footage of other shootings. Teenagers who rush to the aid of others, to warn others of the shooters (as we saw in Columbine), who shield others.. Look at their parents outside having to be held back by the police because they rush there to find their children (ie, not get in the car and leave their kids there)..

    Listen to that guy's interview. He starts to cry when he describes how he thought he was going to die. His son became an afterthought for him, because he thought his son's cries would lead the gunman to him. As a parent, I find that appalling. What he hell kind of parent leaves their 4 month old baby in a place with a crazed gunman and leaves him in a place where he could have been trampled to death by those fleeing, gets in his car after telling himself that if he goes back in for his family, he could die, so he gets in his car and drives off? What? He was safe out of the theater. But he went further than that. He got in his car and left.. With his partner and his two children still in there with a crazed gunman.


    Temporary insanity? He knowingly walked out and drove off, even after he said "I should go back in there and get them, but I don't want to die".. He didn't even bother to hide the baby under a seat. He just left him in plain sight right by the steps..
     
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Panic can bring out the worst in people. Nonetheless, we are a pack-social species and every one of us is born with a very strong instinct to protect our pack-mates. (This is one of the primary differences between a pack-social species and a herd-social species. The adults in a herd will protect all the young, but not each other. Many of the animals whose groups we colloquially call "herds" are actually pack-social, including horses and elephants.)

    But more than that, every one of us is born with a very strong instinct to protect all children, not just our own. The news media are full of reports of people running into burning houses and diving into raging rivers in (often vain and sometimes fatal) attempts to rescue children whose families they don't even know.

    So a man who makes a calculated decision to let his own baby die in order to save his own life has lost one of the basic instincts that defines him as human. I would not argue with calling this "insanity," but I'd wager that it is not temporary.
     
  22. Gregg Schaffter Registered Member

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    But yet again panic actually excites the will to protect the offspring, doesn't it? A natural instinct is to produce adrenaline in these type of situations when the body knows that it is in danger. The father would have tried to protect the family if he even was obligated to his girlfriend(when in fact they had children before marriage, that is). Therefore, he might have just been her boyfriend for the "thrill" of things.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No. They were just the first to be evacuated. There was no expectation that everyone else would die; it was a pretty confusing event.

    In my experience when people are threatened they instinctively protect their children. It's something that's hardwired into us. It can be overcome, as this example demonstrates.

    No, it doesn't. I've done that (a smoking airplane wreck, a few drowning people) and my first instinct was to help my friends or the people I was responsible for. And I didn't have a lot of training to "overcome instincts."

    It was probably some of both - a basic reaction of fear and an intellectual decision based on his own judgment. While you could argue that running away is a basic fight-or-flight reflex, finding your keys and using them to start your car and drive away is not. It is intellectual, a complex series of steps that we have no instinctive programming for.
     

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