Are vegan and vegetarian diets really healthy?

I was just wondering, the number of vegetarians is rising rapidly, and lots of places are recommending and promoting vegan diets. But are they REALLY healthy? Are they REALLY the best kind of diet so far?
We are omnivores for a reason. The expansion of diet and the discovery of meat played a major role in our evolution. Therefore, I think we should have a balanced diet consisting of meat, plants, and diary products. However, some vegetarians argue that consuming meat can cause many serious health problems, and that you can get all the nutrients in meat just by consuming plants, which reduce the tendencies of getting those health problems. But is this really true? I mean, there is a very observable difference between herbivores and carnivores in terms of behaviour. So something must be significantly different about meat and plants.
So does meat have something unique that can never be found in other nutritional sources? Is it better to be omnivores, and eat a little bit of everything in our diet? Or are the vegetarians telling the truth?

Looking forward to any response and comment

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First of all, well, if you mention vegetarian, be a little specific: I read a book (articles as well) which stated that there're some types of vegetarians, vegan is one of them. Vegetarians other than vegans are said to occasionally consume dairy product for their calcium.....
okay, enough for that. I believe if they can manage to get ALL compulsory nutritions from vegs alone, then fine... nothing to worry. Besides, some nutritions can be found more than merely abundantly in plants, vitamins is one example (I haven't found a book saying that animals are rich in vitamins...)
Also, well, they may have been convinced that meat is bad. Classic. So maybe vegetarians just go their way because someone sez "Eat meat and you'll die a century sooner!", or anything to that extent.....

 

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no one is a vegan for the health benefits. it's just an excellent bonus.

that being said, yes it is healthier. by miles. if you eat healthy, that is. there are always those people who subsist soley on junk food and soda which can be done without animal products.
but if your diet is made up of a variety of fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes...your body will thank you. it is possible to be as healthy if you are a meat eater; if your diet is the same as above but also includes fish, it's just as good. except that a lot of fish isn't safe to eat either with all the mercury, pcbs, cfcs, etc. but really, in this day and age there's no reason to include meat in your diet. we have the knowledge to process protein sources from plants that is much healthier and better for your body and the environment (if you think you're an environmentalist but eat meat...you're not!). meat has so little nutrition to begin with. the only nutrient you can't get from plants is vitamin B, but that is easily obtained from bacteria (i take a B suppliment from bacteria source). not a big deal. you can even get a sufficient amount of B from unwashed hands.

my dad was a ravenous carnviore but since developing cancer and heart disease he won't touch anything from an animal except fish. his doctors ordered it. but now that he needs to cut out all salt, fish has gone too.

 

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You can eat meat and be just as healthy as vegetarians, more info can be found at www.quackwatch.org.
Veganism is a belief system which ultimately fails the logic test. Veganism in itself has a spectrum of beliefs and "true" faiths. For example, some vagans refuse to eat honey while others do. Vegans, especially organic vegans eat foods grown with animal fertilizer, and typically harvested by exploited animals, like humans for one. Often it is promoted by carefully written books using propaganda to create an emotional trap and to promote the idea that by not eating meat you are morally or ethically superior. Many vegans commit irrational crimes such as assault or property damage on people they deem "murderers." Not that all vegans are totally irrational, but like radical forms of other religious movements it has its more violent members.
I have noted the prices on "vegan" food products and typically the price is much higher with the label on that for a similar product without the label. In this sense, veganism is also being marketed and health claims sell more stuff. This raises a number of questions, such as 1) There are no proven health benefits to a vegan diet compared to a plant based diet, and 2) vegans still exploit animals, despite the claims of their leaders. 3) Why charge more for products which are easier to make? I am not making any conclusions here, just connect the dots yourself. Vegan information is also accompanied typically with naturopathic advertising and a host of other so called "natural" healing products, most of which are either totally ineffective (homeopathy,) or have some effectiveness but which are inappropriately recommended (such as many dietary supplements.) In this sense, IMHO, veganism is also a marketing and sales movement with a belief system to reinforce sales.
I still maintain friendships with several vegans, I may disagree with their lifestyle, but do not object to them personally. Sorry about the long post, I hope this was informative.

 

I disagree. Growing cattle for meat, or using dairy farms generates fertilizer which in course allows more food to be grown per acre than without. So without this you actually have to deystroy more natural habitat to grow the same amount of food, not to mention waste more water growing the crops because you have to irrigate more land, and using more pesticides which effects aquatic habitats. This would create an environmental disaster. Your post is self contradictory because you admit it is very possible to be an unhealthy vegan (eating only junk food,) then in the next paragraph claim it is healthier ("by miles.") It is not any heathier than a plant based diet with meat, so no, not by miles (although for adults it can easily be just as good.) Further, again, the irrational beliefs and other things marketed with veganism are outright fraud. IMHO, vegans are actually anti-environmental in many ways.

 

:bugeye: erm, i think you have received some misinformation. unless you pulled that out of your ass. let me state for the record that serious vegans (as in not the ones who do it because it's a trend) distance themselves as far from peta as possible. yeah peta is like a strange religious cult that uses propaganda and sensationalistic wrong information to further their cause. but trust me, they represent only a tiny fraction of actual vegans. if you meet a vegan who starts spouting info from peta, you can stop listening at that point. violence against dairy farmers and petitions to change the name of fishkill, ny is not veganism...it's insanity. mental health /= diet. basing what you know/think about veganism on peta or similar organisations (cults) is ridiculous.

veganism really is just a personal choice.

as to the health part, try reading skills next time.
"if you eat healthy, that is. there are always those people who subsist soley on junk food and soda which can be done without animal products."
there are always people who will have crappy diets no matter how much or how little animal is in it.
take the best balanced vegan diet and compare it to the best balanced diet with meat. the vegan is the best of all options, although the balanced meat one may not be terrible. compare the worst vegan diet and it's not even nearly as bad as an average meat diet.

"a vegan diet compared to a plant based diet"
pssst! same thing

special foods marketed towards vegans are not unlike anything else in a capitalist society. someone comes up with an idea to try and make money. and there are plenty of idiots who will empty their wallets for anything new. if you want to eat vegan and aren't a complete moron, you'd buy vegetables from the produce section like i do.

moral of the story: there are f-ing retards everywhere and represented in every group. such are humans.
just because there are a few bad apple vegans doesn't mean there aren't many many more retarded meat eaters.

 

I agree with most of all your opinions. And yes I do think you can get the same stuff in animal products from vegetables and plants IN TERMS OF RAW CHEMICAL SUBSTANCES. For example, you can get proteins from both plants and meat, however, they are different in structures. The animal proteins contain a higher concentration of amino acids when compared with plant proteins. I mean, come on, as far as we know, everything is made out of the same stuff - atoms or sub-atomic particles. But I think it's the different structures, sequences, and arrangements of these particles that really matters. Therefore, we have reasons to believe that animal products have different effects on our bodies, possibly positive effects.
Another thing, if you think about it, if all humans start eating plants and not animals, what would our ecosystem be like? The equilibrium would collapse, or at least show a significantly negative effect. So I think it's better to have a little bit of everything in our diets, but that's just me.

 

First of all, I dont know where Swidish Fish got his information from about PETA. I know several serious Vegetarian and Vegan that are not doing as a "trend" as you said. Every vegetarian and vegan i know strongly support PETA. It is a famous and popular organisation. I myself have donated to them. How can you argue with their videos? They have proof as their reports.
Second of all to the question. Vegetarian and vegan diets are not only healthy, but healthier than meat eating diets. In the start we always ate meat. We were scavengers. We got what we could, and that includes dead animals that they found, as well as ones that they hunted. Vegetarian and Vegan diets are recommended by health expects. A doctor would not recommend something that was not healthy to a patient. Wouldn't it be very likely that if Vegetarian and Vegan diets were unhealthy, you would hear about many people denouncing it as unhealthy.
Another way to think about it is; does the human body, or animal produce anything new in itself in it's meat? For example: cows produce milk, hens produce eggs. Well animals do not produce new nutrients, or vitamins in their meat. So that in itself proves that there is nothing "that can never be found in other nutritional sources" in meat.
The main reason most people become vegetarians and vegans is to support animal rights. If anyone does it for a trend they are eroding the message of serious people, and should think twice. It would take great disrespect at that.

 

Not all health experts recommend this kind of diet, some promote it, some don't and recommend a balance diet containing food from many sources including meat and diary products.
According to Microsoft Encarta Reference Library 2004, yes The vegetarian plant-based diet typically has the advantage of being low in saturated fat (the thing in meat products seriously concerned by many, because over-consumption of it may cause many health problems), cholesterol, and salt, but it can be lacking in other ways. So some health experts suggest that "vegetarians should to plan their diets with special care in order to obtain the essential nutrients received from diets that include meat, fish, and poultry." (From Encarta) Furthermore, as seen in the Pyramid Food Guide published by the Department of Agriculture and Canada's Food Guide, meat and diary products should always be included.
Also according to sources, if you want to be a vegetarian, then you will have to take nutrient supplements, such as vitamins and minerals, especially in the form of pills.
Experts also do not recommend vegan diets for athletes, pregnant mothers, and infants.

 

Nope I totally disagree. There are nutrients that can only be found in meat products. And these nutrients play an important role in our body's growth. Here is my supporting evidence, it's from an article in Encarta.
FROM Microsoft Encarta 2004:
The American Dietetic Association (ADA): "In particular, vegans need a source of vitamin B12 in the form of a supplement, since animal products are the only food sources of this vitamin. They must also be sure to get enough of vitamins B2 and B6, and D, as well as adequate intakes of calcium, iron, zinc, selenium, and other minerals that most Americans obtain from animal foods. The ADA also recommends that infants and children on a vegetarian diet take vitamin supplements for iron, calcium, vitamins B12 and D, and other nutrients to nurture healthy growth."

Yes we were, and the expansion of diet and the introduction of meat played a tremendous role in the evolution of Homo Sapiens and their brains. You simply cannot deny that, it has been proven by numerous sources.

One more thing, I disagree with what some vegetarians say about meat consumption. They are convinced that merely eating meat would trigger many serious health problems. I think that only over-consumption of meat and saturated fats can cause those problems. And we are not promoting crazy meat-eating, just a balanced diet that has all kinds of food.

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Let me start by telling you all the definition of Vegan, and vegetarian.
Vegetarian or the simple form of it (there are many different kinds) is abstinence from meat, and fish. Vegan is the more extreme, which is no fish, meat, eggs, milk, butter, or any dairy products.
Eddymrsci said that the "equilibrium [of the environment] would collapse" if we stopped eating meat. How would the animal system be affected at all? We produce all most of our animals that we eat for consumption in factory farms. Also it would probably be better, considering we are harming the environment and ecosystem with over fishing, and hunting of animals (especially endangered ones, but not exclusively).
Eddymrsci also said that "animal proteins contain a higher concentration of amino acids when compared with plant proteins". That means that you CAN get everything from plant proteins, you just have to watch it, and make sure you get enough. No one said it would be easy, but in the statement it means that it is possible.
Eddymrsci also said vegans and vegetarians should watch their diet. By saying that he is saying that it is fine and healthy to be vegan and vegetarian, you just have to watch it.
Furthermore, why would an Olympic gold medal athlete, ever go vegan if it were not healthy. There are some, but I forget the specifics. You will have to trust me. They pay special attention to their diet to be the best in the world. They are a role model in healthy eating.

 

Let me remind you, jack_quack, we are part of the environment, we are not superior or inferior or even outside the environment. so anything we make in factories or farms leads back to the environment, if we over-consume anything, that's going to upset the ecosystem. Therefore, since the human population is so huge, if we all eat too much plants, while not consuming much meat, that is going to significantly impact the equilibrium of the ecosystem.

I do not think you understand what I am implying in that statement. As I have stated, yes almost everything share the same basic materials (ie. atoms), but it's their structures that causes differences. Differences in concentration of a molecule mean difference in structure, therefore, different effects may be caused.

Yes, and they are other gold medal athletes who are not vegetarians and occasionally consume appropriate amounts of animal products (eg. meat and diary products).

 

Okay, to reply to eddymrsci's last comment. He said that B12 was only available in meat. Well that was not entirely true or false. Let me expand. B12 is only found NATURALLY in fish, milk and milk products, eggs, meat, and poultry. That would make it impossible for vegans to get some. However it is also found in fortified breakfast cereals. "Vitamin B12 is naturally found in animal foods including fish, milk and milk products, eggs, meat, and poultry. Fortified breakfast cereals are an excellent source of vitamin B12 and a particularly valuable source for vegetarians (5, 6, 7). The table of selected food sources of vitamin B12 suggests dietary sources of vitamin B12." Source: http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/vitb12.html#provide or the National Institute of Health.
Furthermore he said that "infants and children on a vegetarian diet [should] take vitamin supplements for iron, calcium, vitamins B12 and D, and other nutrients to nurture healthy growth." This is probably true, but only because children and infants do not eat as cautiously as adults. They also need a lot of certain vitamins and minerals that are found heavily in meats, and fish. So it is harder to do. However, they CAN still get it in plants (fruits, vegetables, grains), but it is more difficult because you may have to eat more in quantity of plants. So it is still possible.

 

Just to quickly reply to eddymrsci's statement about the ecosystem. We take up much more land to produce our animals for consumption, than we do for our plants. If we got rid of all animal production, and replaced it all with farmland, then we would increase food production. This is true also because a large part of our crop goes to feeding those animals. Yes we are part of the ecosystem, but since the animals live in buildings, withdrawn from the ecosystem. They eat what we farm. We are putting control over them, and not really affecting the ecosystem.

 

To expand on one of my previous comments about "infants and children on a vegetarian diet [should] take vitamin supplements for iron, calcium, vitamins B12 and D, and other nutrients to nurture healthy growth". They dont eat cautiously, they dont pay attention to their diet. So they probably should eat those supplements, but if they watch what they eat, then there is no need.

 

If the whole human race suddenly stops consuming any animal, and only produce plants like crazy: 1) the population of the species that we normally consume will increase DRAMATICALLY, because this sudden increase allows no time for the other top predators to control the population 2) since these animals increase in number, the species that they feed on will decrease dramatically, thus causing an upset in the ecosystem, 3) then we would have little to none plants to consume.
APPROPRIATE amounts of animal consumption by humans also play a role in maintaining ecological equilibrium and controlling population of certain species. And since the human population is so big, any change in our diet can affect the rest of the ecosystem. So I recommend eating a little bit of everything.

 

First of all it is unrealistic to expect that everyone will stop eating animals overnight. As the demand for meat decreases, fewer animals will be raised for food. Farmers will stop breeding so many animals and will turn to other types of agriculture. When there are fewer of these animals, they will be able to live more natural lives.
But if you actually want to go down that road; the population of the species that we normally consume would not increase as stated by eddymrsci, because they are fed by us, and are not used to living on their own. They would be easy prey, and would probably actually all die off.
Also there would be no affect on other animals, because they have survived without the diet of farm animals with so long, that the introduction of farm animals into their diet, would give them more food than they need. They might grow slightly in population. However, when the farm animals die off, they could just go back to what they were eating before.
But this has nothing to do with if vegetarianism and veganism is healthy.
Here is my point on that: Both the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the American Dietetic Association have endorsed vegetarian diet.

 

eddymrsci,

Hunting and meat consumption are to very different things, the vast majority of our meat is farm grown and has no place in the ecosystem.

I don't really know anything about the vegan, vegy, meat lover thing. All I really give a dam about is how much of a fares "organic" foods are.

 

wellcookedfetus,
yes I understand that hunting and meat consumption are different, however, they are closely related. Furthermore, although most of our meat is from farms, they are still part of the ecosystem - everything is. As I have stated earlier, human activities are not superior or inferior or even outside of the ecosystem. Whatever we do, we are always acting in the ecosystem.
Therefore, farm animal production is also in the ecosystem. for example, no matter what a farm cow feeds on (grass - found in environment, or whatever fancy plants it likes to eat), the food always comes from the ecosystem (eg. vegetables, fruits, grass, etc.) - The food is always made of stuff that is ultimately found in nature. Furthermore, we humans are part of the ecosystem and we consume cows - another example of ecosystem. Micro-organisms that live on or inside the cow also interact with one another.
Raising animals in farms does sound like that it has no relation with the ecosystem, just because farms and animals are more controlled by humans, but it really is part of the ecosystem - everything is.

 

"if you eat healthy, that is"...

that pretty much works for any diet. You could eat only shit (i mean that literally, actual human excrement) and if you were very careful in selecting the parts to ingest, you'd live to a ripe old age.

pick a diet with or without meat, you still face roughly equivalent challenges.