Are plants conscious?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Musika, Mar 26, 2018.

  1. Musika Registered Senior Member

    Once again, I guess the scientific community is fortunate that your opinions are thoroughly disregarded.
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  3. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

    If you had said that spiritualism is substance dualism then you'd be correct, I think.
    However, property dualism stems from substance monism.
    If you are an advocate of emergentism, for example, then you would consider there to be just one kind of substance (substance monism) but you would accept that a property might emerge from that substance that is irreducible to the properties of that which gives rise to it (property dualism).
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  5. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    Show me where science proves the soul.
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Sure you could. Rains come and hydrate a puddle. Water rises and overflows into another small puddle. Sun comes out and the water recedes; the small puddle is now disconnected and dries up a bit, concentrating the material. Rains come again and reconnect the small puddle to the larger puddle.

    A lot like a tide.
    Frogs, fish, dolphins, whales and dinosaurs did not evolve in puddles (or tidal pools.) The very first organism, however you define that, may have.

    Cold and flu viruses certainly did not. They evolved in people (and similar animals.)
    Nope, sorry. Nothing about breeding or evolution requires tides.
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Science records the existence of inclusive or "higher logical level" patterns, apparently built from (abstracted from) or at least inclusive of the substrate of patterns comprising logical reasoning and semantic processing and the like, involving widely spread and otherwise apparently separated brain regions, that affect the coordination and mutual interactions of that substrate of thought.

    Science records the existence of large scale, whole brain involving, and apparently significant patterns researching scientists have labeled "brain waves" - theta waves, gamma waves, etc, at least five different ones that in combination characterize states of mind such as "attentive" and "sleeping". Their profound effects on memory formation and the like, along with their usefulness in diagnosing mental disorders of various kinds, have been recorded and demonstrated.

    These features of the functioning mind vary consistently and characteristically by person within their range - they can be used to identify a particular person under observation.

    Whether such observations demonstrate the existence of "soul" or similar concepts would depend on definitions and approaches to such concepts.

    Afaik nothing truly analogous has been found in plants - although patterns of signal and response on higher levels than simple stimulus response have been observed in plants.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 at 12:53 AM
  9. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    All sounds like physical phenomenon.
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Start the clip at 25:10 (to avoid lengthy introduction.) The actual demonstration of clay surface area is found at 54:50

    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 at 1:18 AM
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Of course - if by physical one includes relationships between patterns of action, abstract entities without a defined mass, shape, location, dimension, momentum, etc.

    In which case the implications of something being a "physical phenomenon" must include the implications of that logical level of relationship. The concept of "cause and effect", for example, will need major extension and sophistication from its origins in collisions and consequences to begin to apply.

    If one is intent on remaining materialist, the properties of "material" are going to need attention beyond what most reductionist approaches seem willing or able to bring to the task.
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
  12. RainbowSingularity Registered Senior Member

    that is your opinion.

    my opinion is that tides are critical to what we recognise as life evolving into complex animals like mammals/birds and other animals with brains.

    what is an example ?
    show 1 (only 1 out of how many hundreds of thousands of animals with brains?)
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 at 4:57 AM
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    I agree that thinking is a physical process, But how would you define a "best guess"?

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