Are miracles true?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Saint, Nov 15, 2013.

  1. firdroirich A friend of The Friends Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know if they're true or not, I guess we have to each make up our own mind up as none of us were there at the time.
    What we do know from reports though, is that by the time of Jesus' death - estimated at 33 years of age, he performed exactly 33 miracles.
    In esoteric circles 33 is a highly significant number. Is that because of Christ or are the reports about Christ esoteric?
     
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  3. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Every number is significant to numerology clowns. We don't know anything from anecdotal reports, they are not evidence.
     
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  5. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    Are miracles true? Only if you have a soul. Lots of people still do.
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    "Healing."

    My knee hurt a whole lot after I twisted it during a hard landing in 1992. I don't have the problem now. Miracle? Or healing? If you want to call it a miracle and that makes you feel better, then no reason not to.
     
  8. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    God can very readily give us spiritual healing. But atheists don't believe in spirit. Oh well.
     
  9. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Why would God need to heal?
     
  10. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    Definition of MIRACLE

    : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

    : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment

    Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law.

    So which type of miracle are we discussing here anyway?
     
  11. Saint Valued Senior Member

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    Many people who prayed for healing and refused to see doctor eventually die,
    divine healing is superstition.
     
  12. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    "Many"?
    Is it not 100% of such people?
    In fact is it not 100% of all people (currently).

    My view of a miracle is in line with Hume:
    "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact which it endeavours to establish."
     
  13. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    @ Baldeee/OP,

    Some might argue that most (if not all) coincidences are tiny miracles. A famous psychologist even coined the term "Synchronicity" to describe the effect more accurately.

    Have you never heard of "The Placebo Effect"? This means anybody who expects healing might artificially create a "miracle".

    The power of suggestion in general can be used as a weapon or treatment. If you tell a healthy person they "sound tired/look pale/seem green around the gills" they may respond by becoming physically ill. The same is true adversely.

    Your claim pretends that we know everything there is to know. If telepathy is real as statistical anomalies suggest is true (find your own facts here), then possibilities for a mass mind consciousness are most definite. In such a world our minds might arrange seemingly "chance" meetings with those we desire to meet, etc. If telepathy is ever proved to exist then this claim of yours would need to be reexamined.

    Finally,

    Jesus taught people they could use their own faith to heal themselves. This is a common theme taught to many who lived in Egypt as Jesus had. The theme had dominated Egyptian Culture and Universities. We know this from writing found by many in attendance to these schools. Pythagoras, and Plato both waited over 20 years preparing to be accepted into the mystery schools. Among the other people who studied there were Aristotle, Copernicus, Kepler, and its teachings also greatly influenced others like Isaac Newton, Napoleon, Da Vinci,

    i.e.
    Matthew 8:13
    Then Jesus said to the centurion, �Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.� And his servant was healed that same hour.
    Matthew 8:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

    Matthew 15:28
    Then Jesus answered and said to her, �O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.� And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
    Matthew 15:27-29 (in Context) Matthew 15 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

    He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."

    Many verses claim Jesus did heal, but when he spoke he often attributed the healings to their own measures of belief. Belief can telepathically create a group viewpoint that influences health is the concept here. If telepathy is ever proven to exist. Those who choose to ignore probabilities of psi likelihood based on many years of experiments are foolish in my opinion. I have professionally been involved with psychic experiments, and have seen and performed telepathy first hand to a point where I just think skeptics are not a very bright bunch. I feel bad for them, but they could all stand to try it themselves.
     
  14. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    You can even just ask "are you feeling alright" to most anyone who is tired or fatigued. It takes very little sometimes, and is why I think most transitory illness is largely psychosomatic. You can even choose to make yourself sick, especially when dreading something you would rather avoid.

    While I agree with your general point about the placebo effect, I do not see a clear link between that and telepathy/psi. People could be influenced subconsciously due to body language and the like without ever requiring anything so fantastic. I have found that where people are the least engaged or aware of their own actions or environment they are more easily manipulated.
     
  15. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Just happened across this (googling "church of the null hypothesis") that seemed relevant.

    The null hypothesis deserves more respect than it gets. I believe most of us have a mindset that neglects the contingent nature of existence. This bias toward meaningfulness causes people like Carl Jung to confuse random coincidence with significant synchronicity. Instead of postulating some weird "alignment" of universal forces, why couldn't Jung accept that in a lifetime of occurrences some coincidences would be more startling and remarkable than others? - http://zenoferox.blogspot.com/2005/11/church-of-null-hypothesis.html
     
  16. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Some might argue that.
    I wouldn't.
    I just see coincidences as natural obeyance of probability: at some point something unlikely will occur that we remember as being of significance.
    Such are no miracles, as far as I'm concerned.
    Yes.
    I have heard of it.
    But I am not sure of the relevance here.
    My point is that everyone eventually dies.
    Thus I found the person's comment quite humourous: "Many people who prayed for healing and refused to see doctor eventually die," as if the person thinks there are some people who don't eventually die.
    What claim?
    That everyone eventually dies?
    Again - not sure of the relevance here.
     
  17. Saint Valued Senior Member

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    I have cough and flu now, I pray but not healed at all.
    God is ineffective.

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  18. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe you missed kwhilborn's post about belief being a prerequisite. Just like the placebo effect, you do not get the benefits before believing it will work, and you cannot prove the placebo effect to yourself if you know it is a sugar pill.
     
  19. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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  20. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    Depends on what 'miracles' means. (There I go again...)

    I've seen couples refer to their new baby as a 'little miracle'. They don't mean that there's anything supernatural about their new baby, or even that babies are unusual. They are just saying that they find their new baby amazing and wonderful. So sure, miracles obviously happen in that subjective sense.

    But the word 'miracle' is also used in a much stronger sense, to refer to supernatural and presumably divine violations of the natural order.

    Do these stronger sorts of miracles ever happen? Maybe. It's hard to rule them out entirely, but I'm inclined to follow David Hume in thinking that it might not be entirely rational to believe that they do. That's because violations of the natural order are going to be extremely unlikely by their very nature. So there's probably going to be an alternative non-miraculous explanation for whatever it was that's more likely than a miraculous explanation. Maybe the report of a miracle is a mistake, an intentional lie, uncritical credulity or whatever. Unlike miracles, those kind of things are observed to happen all the time.
     
  21. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    @ Everyone,

    I'm afraid I cannot comment on this thread anymore or the bloody Moderator might turn my post into another thread again. Sad.
     
  22. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Are we supposed to be disappointed?

    Please don't try to plead being a victim:
    It smacks of a burglar complaining that a dog attacked him while in the house.
    Just trying to avert the attention away from the real issue.

    If you want to post, then post.
    If you let your feelings of a Moderator prevent you then the only thing stopping you is you.
    You have not been banned.
    You are not prevented in any way from posting.

    Just post something relevant.
     
  23. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    If I really wanted to have fun, I would make this post its own thread.

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