Are Blacks dumber than the rest of us?

I read over a few of my posts, and I hope you guys don't think that I am senselessly bashing white people. My comments are historically based and not meant to offend anyone.

 

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I see this thread has finally seemed to have died... but now to through some dirt on it to keep it from respawning! Here is a list of links refering to inventions by African Americans only. I chose this group, because as being one, it's what I know the most about. After reading I hope you don't feel to hurt over not being one

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, but rather merely cast off your ignorant segregationist pride and simply accept the fact that mental superiority is not granted by appearant physical attributes of any particuluar "race", but is instead something that most be strove for Individually.

Here's a list of links:

African-American Inventors Database

http://edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu/~rlandrum/general.htm

This is a goodsite for info in general Check the invention table.

An remeber this isn't all the contributions, nor contributers. From the looks, it would seem that "Blacks" have been a quite significant decider in the development of modern technology, society and civilization as a whole.

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p.s. Although I'm really what you might consider multiracial(mutt), I'm considered as being African American because I do have some, or atleast one, traceable African ancestor. I think? :bugeye:

 

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of course! one drop of black blood and you are out of the white race! a racist legacy still alive kicking after all these years!

"ahh yeah my great great gran was black"
"well sorry son we got to turn you down for that loan"

"ahh yeah my great great gran was black"
"i am sorry we rented it out"

"ahh yeah my great great gran was black"
"sorry you cant come in. we dont like your kind in here"

whats whitey's problem? where the hell is malcolm x?

 

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Dude, you're such a cracker crusher. The gaul. Unbelievable.

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In Australia, Spookz, you could add a bit to that too.

"aaahhh my grandmother was an aboriginal"
"here! have some grant money!"

"aaahh yeah my father was half aboriginal"
"alright then, we've reserved some places for you in the local university.. how about the rest of your family? They're not all filled yet"

"aahh my people had deep connections to this chunk of desert you want to mine"
"Ah, wel then. Apply to land grants council and stop them mining it!"
"er ok... but I'd prefer to let them go ahead as long as I can share in the profits"


Pro and anti... pro and anti....

Should I include the car loans bit? Go on.. ask me

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This is somewhat redundant. You can't go anywhere in america without observing 'popular media', and this increases the amount of homogenous as culture becomes nationwide

 

persol:

? that seemed completely off-topic. and i said that, not james r.

james r:

uh, that's ludicrous. the only time when survival skills really come into play is when you really have to do some independent surviving, when you really have to think for yourself, and often on your feet, to discern the most efficient, energy-saving, and least dangerous survival options. these are situations when your plane crashes in the amazon and the pilot dies and its just you, a fat businessman, two flashlights, and the stifling jungle to keep you company. in that situation you have to make your survival path. you have to find food, clothin, and shelter for yourself. only in that situation is intelligence key. for that matter, any situation wherein natural selection is god and competition is his sword is a situation wherein "the intelligence to work out how to survive is crucial."

slavery is not one of those situations. what, for three-hundred years black people work as farmers, domestic servants, and menial laborers and that constitutes an extreme survival situation? give me a break. this is merely a matter of having the body that is suited to withstanding the barrage of the elements, or that of your master's whip. i dont care how fucking smart you are at "figuring out to survive," you cant come up with a way to force your body to stand up straight after 18 hours of picking crops if physically its impossible for you to do so. the only prayer your argument has of holding water is that maybe, just maybe, the situation of being captured in africa and shipped away to the america's is a survival situation as i defined it above. but even that is a longshot. at the point you're captured, at the point you lose circumstantial free will, the situation ceases to be an extreme survival situation. you're just following orders at that point and trying to brave the excruciating pain. the only thing your mind has to do is follow the portuguese fucker thats dragging you in chains to his ship, not figure out how to hunt an antelope with two wooden sticks and some string while you're being eyed by african lions.

dont get me wrong, slavery was a horrendous institution that no doubt had debilitating effects on its victims, but it takes no brains to learn how to withstand pain. just raw guts. or good genes.

uh, what do you think that entire inspired anecdote about the black people on the ship was for? my own sick little amusement? its inductive and intuitive reasoning, for sure. but it makes more sense to me than your alternative, which, may i remind you, has little to no scientific evidence to back it up either.

wesmorris:

the first two quotes you took from me were sarcastic and hyperbolic renditions of what i perceived to be flawed logical arguments by whomever it was that i was critiqueing. thats why they didnt make sense.

okay. so no one knows exactly in what manner evolution/race affects brain development. if thats true, then if i cant make a distinct scientific correlation between race and brain development than you cant disprove that correlation. fine, then i guess we have to fall back on what we know historically and what we can sense intuitively, however faulty those perceptions may be. our side has historical, albeit unprovable, evidence, whereas you have only assertions. we also have the empirical work of The Bell Curve authors, which relies not on provable science but on mere statistical analysis.

everyone else, in particular qiothus:

this thread has devolved into black people's self justifications for intrinsic equality. people are now bringing up black inventors, emotional quotients, whatevers to prove that despite their inherent mental disadvantages, black people in america really are EQUAL. another fallacy. no one ever said they werent as human, or as worthy, or as dignified, as the rest of humanity. just that in mental capacities they may be particularly challenged. stop tying human equality to abilities or accomplishments.

bringing up extraneous shit like the fact the black people are good dancers, songwriters, and emotional geniuses is irrelevant. it only ignores the hard facts. belittling the methods and implications of iq tests is just ludicrous. even if they are an arbitary selection and measure of certain human qualities that by chance the industrial world has come to value, the fact remains that when tested for their proficiency in these areas black people consistently failed to perform up to the standards that were in place. fine. concede that iq tests are inaccurate indicators of human worth. they still tell a minor truth, and it is what is at the heart of this discussion, not the intrinsic value of a race of people.

nice anecdote, but it proves nothing. in fact, it contradicts your message qiothus. you say that we should hold hands, sing kumbaya, and judge a person strictly by their individual capacities. but wait, now that you see one black person had good eq, suddenly you believe that all black people have good eqs? and you condemned broad generalizations based on race???

and what the hell is an eq anyway? you spend a paragraph criticizing the science behind the iq test, yet you seem to put value in this eq test? im not saying it doesnt have value, but why is one arbitrarily developed test with artificial values and conditions acceptable and not another?

heh, i happen to agree with you about whites, somewhat about asians, and well, i dont really know too much about blacks' lifestyles. its somewhat of a jaw-dropping assertion though that blacks could become smarter if they wanted to. im not saying its not possible, but youre basically acceding that they're mentally incapable as it is. and more than that, you're again contradicting yourself on that whole mlk "judge a person by his individual traits" thing again by reifying racial categories and characterizing the different races.

okay, i guess its settled then. the genetic difference in the brains of the different races is confirmed.

 

Uber, statistics don't take into account all aspects of a situation. The "Bell Curve" bases its conclusions on IQ tests, which we didn't even have in the US until around 1950. What statistics fail to consider, is the history of "Blacks" in America and the many obstacles that have been placed in front of them.

Until 40 years ago, Blacks were segregated in society, and this is after hundreds of years of slavery, where they weren't allowed to educate themseleves. When you add to the equation the fact that Blacks were left largely in innercities after desegregation, and that the schools they attend are overcrowded, insufficiently funded, and get the least capable teachers, you can see many other reasons as to why they score lower than their counterparts.

Another intersting thing about the "Bell Curve" is it's hypocrisy of it's findings. When the book was written in 1994, it stated that only 29,000 "African Americans" have an IQ over 130. Yet, it also states that more than 20,000 of the 29,000 were under 21 at the time. Using basic logic, wouldn't that mean that Black IQ scores are going up due to increased education. Such a huge increase would point to opportunity rather than "race" as the reasons for IQ scores.

I still have never seen any evidence of a difference in the mental capacities between the races. Hell, I still haven't heard anyone explain how we determine what "race" a person is.

 

here's what i'm going to do

ubermich,

i'm going to take 500 white folks from the US, take them over to africa, enslave them and their descendents for 200 years, force them to speak a different language and convert to a different religion, make it illegal to teach them to read. then i will free them and alow them to live as 2nd class citizens for a few generations, then i'm going to get some wealthy black africans to create an "IQ" test.

I bet you a shinny nickel that the whites will score lower than the africans.

 

No. You can't regard slavery as a directional selection pressure - or at least an effective one. For one, it only operates for about three hundred or so years. For a slow breeding animal like the human, three hundred years of sporadic selection (I can imagine that conditions would vary due to several factors) don't do shit.

Now, one could counter that slavery served as a bottleneck causing event, but how a population of millions, with new alleles entering the gene pool all the time, could bottleneck is beyond me.

If one wants to account for blacks scoring lower on IQ tests, one need only point out cultural bias on the tests, the dubious value of the tests themselves, 300 years of cultural pressure against academic excellence, and borderline malnutrition in the poorer segments of the black population.

That said, what's the relevence? Ultimately, the decision to address the problem of ignorence and poverty in the black subculture is going to be made on self-serving grounds. One need only attend an inner city high school (as I have) to see the problem. Those who would argue blacks to be innately less intelligent than whites are not merely racist, they are academically dishonest.

On the converse, those who would place sole blame on the dominent power structure - i.e whites - are pussies. Ultimately, blacks have sole responsibility to pursue academic excellence, and facilitating the present culture of victimization ain't gonna do jack shit to help.

Academic catfights - excuse me, debates - like this serve no purpose but to distract from the real problem.

 

DAMN!

What Xev said.... well put!

 

Damn it! I just wrote a really good reply and my computer got messed up! I am going to try again now.

I basically said that my explanation for using IQ and EQ was to show that you can't judge intelligence by just one factor. There are so many types of intelligence that IQ alone should not say whether blacks are dumber than anyone else. The myriad examples are not generalizations at all, rather merely single case examples to show that not everyone follows the statistic.
Also, when you say that blacks have "inherent mental disadvantages", that is quite offensive. And I'll tell you why... I for one do not think that any so-called race of humanity is any less intelligent than another. Do you honestly think that if humanity evolved at the same time that creation would neglect one area in one race than another? As products of their environment, I think the only difference is that blacks are more geared to athleticism because their ancestors needed to adapt to maintain their tribal, hunter gatherer lifestyle.
I wouldn't say that bringing up EQ is irrelevant for the overall topic of black intelligence because that is a type of intelligence; however, for talk about IQ, yes it is. So, here is what I think of IQ: it is not a relevant test at all because it only shows limited cognitive ability. Now, my opinion is irrelevant to the topic as well, but what is not irrelevant is why blacks do poorly on the test. Prepare yourselves, for I shall now go against my ideals and make a very large generalization in order to appease you. Blacks don't do as well as whites on IQ tests because they don't care; it is all attitude based. The mindset of most blacks versus whites is to get what you want as easily as possible. The thing is, in general, whites want very different things than blacks; whites want to advance EVERYTHING, blacks only want to maintain themselves in a state where they will be happy. Attitude is one very large reason blacks do poorly, but also because of their environment. Ok, end of generalization. To give an explanation from an individual perspective, we will look at two stereotypical cases of a white person and a black person.
A black male grows up in the inner city ghetto and is taught all of his life that he should make the best of what he has and get rich. His parents tell him that he should get out of the ghetto and get a good education. Early in life, his peers and many elders tell him that he can be rich and have a nice lifestyle if he is a pimp or a thug, that selling drugs will get him the bling, bling that everyone wants (because everyone wants the bling bling). He goes to school and is really good at math, he makes As without trying; he likes school and wants to be a teacher. He finally hits his teenage years and his parents tell him that he should stay in school, however, when he wants to show his parents how good he is doing in school, they are either to mad from fighting with each other to care, or they are drunk and his dad beats him whenever he feels that he could benefit from a lesson. Now a teen, he gets into his rebellious stage and has to go against his parents and so he runs with the thug crowd and gets into fights and selling drugs and skipping class. When he does go, he daydreams and makes jokes to entertain the class. His grades slip and one day he is made to take an IQ test. Freeze frame and rewind to the day before. His best friend Mooky got shot in a drive-by in broad daylight, and the police didn't really care, his mom got hospitalized by his drunken father and before he left for school that day, he was beat up by a couple of guys he owed money to. He sits and takes the test, half daydreaming and half asleep; a third of the way through, time is called and he doesn't think about it ever again, he leaves the school that day and never returns because one of his thug friends has a money-making proposition that he is very interested in. Years later, he is making a living as a rapper and selling drugs; he spends every night smokin on dro, sippin foties (40s) and bangin at the club. He makes a good bit of money and has sex almost every night.
A white male lives in a broken family; his dad was put in jail for assaulting and nearly killing his mom. His mother works two jobs and has made enough money to move them out of the ghetto and into a suburban home. The boy goes to a nice school and has lots of friends. He is an ok student who makes Cs and Bs and excels in art. He brings home a report card one day with two As and the rest Bs, and his mom takes him to a nice dinner; she lets him know just how proud she is. After that, he tries even harder to make good grades in school and he gets better every year. As a teen, he too becomes rebellious and spends more time with his friends and gets into some trouble. He takes and IQ test. That morning, his mom wakes up early to make him breakfast and gives him a hug on the way out the door, he also talks out his problems with the bully that used to steal his money. He walks into the test with a smile and success on his mind. Years later, he is a famous artist and lives in a nice studio apartment in New York.
Who do you think got the higher IQ and why? Yes these are very stereotypical analogies, but they give an individual's perspective. Should you reverse the black guy with the white, do you think that they would turn out differently? Would the black guy become a Harvard professor? Would the white guy become Eminem? It all boils down to what you think will happen. There are more than just the test results to an IQ test that will show how well someone can do on one. The black person may have had a higher IQ than the white, but the white person likely scored higher because of his environment. I am merely stating that you do have to look at the individual more closely to determine overall intelligence or even IQ. Subjective experience is what will give you your opinion of another, but the truth of their intellect is indeterminable without the whole of the story. Blacks are not dumber because I am smarter than average. Whites are not smarter because some arbitrary white is dumber than average. Average is subjective to a finite area of the majority; thus, an individual is what they are.

 

Xev

Very well said. I think I was trying to say something like that, but I can't say anything without tackng on a story that makes sense only to me.

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What ever happened to free speech? Whether I agree with racism or not, I firmly believe in free speech.

 

Qiothus:

You could have broken it into paragraphs, too.

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LionHearted:

Upholding the ideals of democracy takes an intellectual courage that few can muster. Thus, often people will sing the praises of freedom until they find themselves confronted with an idea that offends their authoritarian veiw of the universe.

Ultimately, democracy and all that the word implies, is a concept better than the species that invented it.

 

hmmmm....."melting pot"

I'm ojibwe (that's "injun" for you americans) and it doesn't really surprise me that a question like that is asked. I mean hell, the man who asks a question is only a fool for five minutes, yet the fool who never asks is a fool forever.

So what's so impossible about peace? love? unity? respect?

The thought that another race is smarter is irrelevant to evolution. Intelligence only seems to go as far as the imagination. Someone actually had nothing else to do with his life other than to come to america, devellop a pessimistic standpoint and actually convinced themselves that he/she was the king of the world. Not too hard to do when it's safe to pop out kids every few months or so, right?

Instead of growing up to learn how to tie knots and build houses we're taught to pave paradise and put up a fuckin' parking lot. If i'm stupid, I'm damn proud of it. I'm a savage you morons, i don't give a damn about being the smartest, fastest, strongest, best looking, most gifted person out there. I care about my family friends and environment.

The smartest man who was at war was the one who stayed home. How the outside world ends up is usually a product of what goes on at home in the first place. Is it fear? laziness? Peace IS attainable.

SOMBODY needs a hug.

To each his own
Thy Will be done
:m: :m: :m:

 

I would be curious to see the results of an experiment where 50 or so children from each race would be raised and given the exact same education and exposed to the exact same cultural influences and tested for IQ. Has anything like this ever been done? Wouldn't an experiment like this resolve this debate one way or the other?

 

'Strange:

It's not human nature, and thank Cthulhu! What a boring world this would be, if we all loved and cherished one another!

"We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world."
--Aleistar Crowley

I fail to see the relevence of this, or even what your point is.

*Edit*

Oh, and thanks Wes.

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Well said Xev, you make some great points.